In the Box - Some thoughts

Jim Kaznosky

The biggest criticism I'm seeing with this method is that some folks feel like they are still playing in boxes.

Elliot and Will have done their own finger maps and I've seen Elliot's, where he marks out the root. I would suggest marking out all chord tones. If you start seeing where chord tones are and are aware of some of the linear relationships on the fretboard, it becomes easier to connect the shapes.
A couple of examples: a minor third between the 3rd and 5th in Maj or Dom runs or two frets apart.
a minor third between the 6th and the root or two frets apart. These are great places to do chromatics and great places to connect runs.

And it is definitely worthwhile to envision these boxes like CAGED shapes. That's the way I'm seeing them and I'm trying to think of them as interesting runs around arpeggios. I think it is key to see the arpeggio in the line and that will speed learning.

I'm trying to work on unfamiliar positions. I'm pretty comfortable with improvising on certain forms (E-shape, A-Shape). My goal in doing this is to really break out of these two as my go-to spaces in live improvs and find different starting points. We'll see how that goes.

Carry on,
Jim

Lango-Django

People knock the boxes, but they are just a part of playing the guitar. Django played out of boxes, and so do all the leading GJ players of today.

Now of course, Django and all the contemporary players are also proficient with the 'horizontal' style arps, too.

And the truth is, when I find a method book with a title like "Horizontal Arps For Dummies", I'm sure I'll buy it!

Not to knock anybody's style or instruction book out there, but my impression so far of those horizontal arps is that they are mostly set pieces to be memorized and used "as is" and are not really a good vehicles for improvisation...?

I'm open to challenge on that point, and I'm sure somebody at this site will set me straight if I'm wrong!

Will

Craig Bumgarner

I seem to recall Stephane Wrembel's book shows fingerboard maps for horizontal arpeggios for most all the chords and inversions one will encounter in (gypsy) jazz. As well as the box arps for same. He calls horizontal and box arps "open" and "closed" respectively. He also sufficiently discusses what arps can be played over what chords and when. Not much discussion of why (theory), but I found it very easy to understand and use.

CB

Lango-Django

Yeah, I've got that book too... it's a good "encyclopedia" of arps but unfortunately I found it not to be quite "dumbed down" to my level :?

Plus, I've gotta say this, ok get ready for a flame war... I really wonder... does Stephane actually USE all those horizontal arps, or did he just put 'em in the book to make it look good?

... and I say that only because if I were writing a book, that's what I'd probably do!

bopster

I haven't seen Stephane live or many of his videos, but all the players I have seen use horizontal arpeggios in both straightforward and hybrid combinations: Stochelo, Adrien, Gonzalo, Robin, Alfonso, Denis. Any of the fast arpeggios that climb 3 octaves (especially gypsy waltzes) seem to be done this way.

I once asked Denis Chang if there are certain arpeggios and fingerings that are best to learn for mastering this music, and he stated "all of them."

Lango-Django

Oh, I know they use them. I use them, too. The good new is, whenever I use them in my playing they are always very impressive.

The bad news is, the only thing I know how to do with them is regurgitate them verbatim.

Now, Django knew how to use them artfully... have you ever tried to learn his solo on "Honeysuckle Rose"?

In bar three, he does something like this over a Gm7/C7:

-----------------------10------13------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------8-------11---------------------------10--------10--------10--------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've spent several years now trying to understand the context of that lick... was it just a "one off" that Django worked up especially to play this paraphrased melody line?

Or was this lick part of Django's mental map when playing over a m7 chord? Did he have a standard horizontal m7 arp of which this example is just a little two-string fragment?

Perhaps somebody out there can enlighten me...

Will

BluesBop Harry

Hi Lango-Django,
Let me begin by agreeing that Django was just a Genius melody maker! And how he thought about a lot of stuff will remain a mystery forever... but from a theory point of view when can understand his note choices and find a way to practice them, so we can at least have some of the same rough materials to begin crafting our own little melodies.

The phrase you posted is just a Gm9 arp: G Bb D F A ... It's just that he doesn't play the A going up...
Try This:

-----------------------10------13--------17--------17---------17--------------------------------------------------
-------------11---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------12-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
or even better:
-------------------------17--------17---------17--------------------------------------------------
-------------15---18------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------15-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----17-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


that's easier to see... He's using "octave displacement" to play the A an octave lower.

Now the horizontal way:
-------------------------------------17--------17---------17--------------------------------------------------
--------------------15---------18-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------12-----15------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or could be:
-----------------------------13--------17--------17---------17--------------------------------------------------
-------------11-------15--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------12------------------------------(14)-------(14)-------(14)---------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

or the way you posted.



One way to practice that kind of extended arpeggio is to take an scale and go up in thirds say G dorian (G A Bb C D E F) : G Bb D F A C E
In the guitar the most effective way to do it is with horizontal fingerings. 2 note per string works well... But you have 7 positions for one scale/arp.
Play them and try playing the next note in the arp an octave lower once in a while... To prepare for that kind of displacement Django did.
Another way would be to play four notes in one direction and then start again from the next note in the scale: G Bb D F - A C E G - Bb D F A - C E G Bb etc That makes for a very useful exercise and you'll find Django's notes before you can complete the second group.

I hope that helps...
To work them into your playing take a small bit at a time and try to invent simple short ideas over a 1 or 2 chord backing. Borrow the rhythm from that Django bit you posted to make it swing more

bopster

Lango, is this the lick right after he quotes the two melody phrases (the older, classic recording)?

Lango-Django

Yes, bopster, you are correct.

Harry, I don't quite understand why it's necessary to name that arp a Gm9... to me it's just Gm7 resolving to a C13... but maybe that's just me... I know you're a real whiz on those horizontal arps... can you think of other examples of Django using a horizontal m7 arp?

I ask because my Stephane Wrembel "Getting Into Gypsy Jazz" specifically states that gypsies deliberately avoid m7 chords, usually preferring either m6 or straight minor chords.

But my non-gypsy ear likes the sound of m7 chords...

Will

Michael Bauer

Since I've had some lessons with Stephane, and have seen him play close up lots of times, he does use horizontal arpeggios all the time. Stephane has reached that enviable place where he can see and play things as he thinks them, so he plays the arpeggio to get his fingers to the place where the next notes he's thinking of are located. It's beyond conscious thought.

I was fortunate enough to spend an evening hanging out with Barney Kessel between his sets in a bar in Germany in the mid-70's, and he basically explained it the same way. It's like chess in that for the great players, the mind it already thinking several moves ahead and the fingers just go there. For schmos like me, that doesn't happen. Adrian Holovoty said once that when he plays, the right notes just light up on the fretboard, and the lights move around as the chords change. That sounds a little like synethesia to me, which isn't a bad thing to have if you are a musician.

As for minor 7th chords, Wrembel stated to me that he feels they should be avoided "except in ballads". But I never think of them exactly as minor 7ths in a ii-V-I, but more as a dominant 7th with a suspended 4th, and I like that movement. It sounds good to me if not overdone. For example, a Bm7 leading into an E7 really functions to me as an E7sus4. It's how I hear it, so I think of it that way, theory be damned!

Lango-Django

Adrian Holovoty said once that when he plays, the right notes just light up on the fretboard, and the lights move around as the chords change.

Sounds like "Guitar Hero"! Seriously, I wish my guitar would do that for me!

BTW, I happened to be watching "Oprah" on daytime TV one time and Valerie Bertinelli was the guest, who is the ex-wife of rock guitar god Eddie van Halen. She said she could kick van Halen's butt at "Guitar Hero"!

Life is funny, innit?