Rest stroke - wrist or elbow

Piotr

I am mainly a rhythm player, but lately I've been trying to get into some lead playing and decided to relearn my picking technique.
I've read and watched quite a bit about the rest stroke technique and have a fundamental doubt. Does the rest stroke move come from the wrist or from the elbow?
On one hand, "Gypsy Picking" says: "Picking motion should always be generated from the wrist." On the other hand, "to play a rest-stroke with a pick, raise your hand about an inch above the
low A string and then let it fall onto the A string (using gravity, not your muscles)." If my hand falls with gravity, it seems like the movement is actually from the elbow, not the wrist.
Yaakov Hoter in his Gypsy Jazz School is very adamant about playing the down-stroke from the elbow and the up-stroke from the wrist. In the beginning phase he advocates raising the hand quite high to get the feel for using the gravity.
So - is it the elbow or the wrist?

Jazzaferri

I don't know what he means by using elbow. If one lowers ones forearm a bit when dropping one is going to have to raise it again or it will end up on your thigh

If he means the relaxation is from the elbow and therolling motion includes the musculature from the elbow I woulD agree as feeling my arm when I do the motion it feels like the motion initiates in the elbow on the downstroke and more from the wrist on the upstroke.

My forearm has to move as it is connected to the wrist but it is all rolling motion, my forearm doesn't have any up and down.

Hope that helps

BluesBop Harry

The elbow can move the forearm up and down (curls) and rotate the hand (palm up, palm down).

With a straight wrist you can move the hand sideways (karate chop) and up-down (knocking on a door)...but...

When the wrist is bent gypsy style the karate chop motion can no longer be achieved and elbow and wrist move as one (Shaking out a match). So this rotation involves both wrist and elbow...The trick is Try to FEEL the motion in the wrist...

Piotr

Thank you for your comments! Having compared the right hand technique of a few more Gypsy players I guess it is safe to say that the movement comes BOTH from the wrist and the elbow, with some players leaning more towards each of the extremes.
Some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdJU9qUv50g
Fapy and Tchavolo, two masters playing together. Fapy plays rest strokes almost completely from the wrist and Tchavolo almost completely from the elbow
And there is of course Django himself and J'Attendrai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXUUxpVTfEg
It is pretty much wrist and elbow for him. You can also get a nice view of his picking angle from 1:20 onwards.

All in all - I find the statement in Gypsy picking "always from the wrist" a bit misleading.

kevingcox

I think with the variety of human proportions and mechanics involved (arm length, hand width, guitar size, etc.) it is impossible to give a definitive answer that it is one or the other. Pick angle, how to hold it, how much sticks out, etc... Jimmy Rosenberg and Tchavolo Schmitt have completely different ways they hold their picks, but who is "right"?

Like Mr. Rogers sang "everything grows together, because you're all one piece." The key is to find what works best for you.

Jazzaferri

The biomechanics of this quandary are relatively simple though. Picking using the forearm elbow in a plane roughly parallel to the strings is slower as the amount of mass that has to be accelerated up and down is greater. It also leads to more RSI problems over the long term

The rolling motion has less mass to accelerate, and is is much easier on the body.

You get to decide what is right for you.

oliverf

Haha. I'll be running through some physics equations when I'm playing Les Yeux Noirs.