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Useing chords in lead

LeeWinterLeeWinter New
edited December 2013 in Gypsy Jazz 101 Posts: 18
Hi everyone I'm not really sure what its called but i see GJ players jumping from solo on to a cord then back to soloing and i would love some some tips on this as it would brake up my soloing and give it a bit of variety. any help would be great I'm jamming with Django's Tiger and sheik of Araby, Douce Ambiance Dark Eyes Djangology among others and im not using the cord thing and would love to' i can jump on to the appropriate cord thats playing at the time of the solo but the GJ players hold on to cords longer sort of hammering at them and sound diminished,

any help as always very much appreciated

Lee
http://www.youtube.com/user/hiya7

to become a bad Gypsy jazz player would be a fine accomplishment!
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  • Bob HoloBob Holo Moderator
    Posts: 1,252
    Howard Alden gave a wonderfully clear explanation of how he maintains the core and movement of the chords in a recent lesson with Robin Nolan. His ideas and explanation were dynamite.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p24GHhAebaM&t=435&hd=1

    It also reminded me of something Mathieu Chatelain told me many years ago - that he doesn't think of a song as a series of forms or patterns to be done one way, because if you're just thinking of rhythm as the act of playing a series of patterns or chords, you're very restricted and your sound is not as appealing because you have not developed a concept of the structure and momentum of the song... what makes it cohesive... why it works... when and why it moves. When he learns any song, he spends time thinking about the movement within the chord structure - which notes MUST change - which CAN change - and which CAN'T change from chord to chord. From that understanding he builds a chord structure that can support the lead player - and if the lead player wants a different sound or feeling or tension, it's easier for him find that without losing the core. It seems very similar to Howard's concept, and it's what these guys are doing so they understand how to intersperse chords and solos. They're making a point to understand how to paint the essence of the chord structure and its movement with the fewest brush strokes so they reserve the greatest amount of their capacity for soloing against that core, and so they know where and how they can add tension through some device like hanging on a chord longer than they should, or hanging on a major chord a half step below (or above) the resolution, or using a tritone substitution or a relative minor or an unexpected cadence or whatever... In other words, when you understand what you must to do to keep from "breaking" a song - you'll understand a lot more about what you can do to bend it.
    Mandobart
    You get one chance to enjoy this day, but if you're doing it right, that's enough.
  • crookedpinkycrookedpinky Glasgow✭✭✭✭ Alex Bishop D Hole, Altamira MF01, Godefroy Maruejouls
    Posts: 798
    This is a brilliant answer from Bob
    Bob Holo wrote:
    Mathieu Chatelain ... doesn't think of a song as a series of forms or patterns to be done one way, because if you're just thinking of rhythm as the act of playing a series of patterns or chords, you're very restricted and your sound is not as appealing because you have not developed a concept of the structure and momentum of the song... what makes it cohesive... why it works... when and why it moves. When he learns any song, he spends time thinking about the movement within the chord structure - which notes MUST change - which CAN change - and which CAN'T change from chord to chord. ....

    I am by no means an accomplished player, 5 years in and I'm still learning, but I do get asked by my fellow Hot Club of Glasgow jammers why I play different shapes from them and why I prefer some chord shapes over others in certain songs and - in my own modest and unwitting way - I realise I've been following a similar process to Mathieu. If you know and have an understanding of a tune - and that's your own understanding or interpretation not what someone else tells you - then you will almost naturally add the right embellishments.

    A.
    always learning
  • LeeWinterLeeWinter New
    Posts: 18
    Thanks for the reply's i understand and do think they are great posts but my question i think is more simple its just i don't know ho to describe what i was asking so i have posted a video of Tchavolo Schmitt who uses what i described as chord lead fantastically.

    on 45 120 141 seconds in this video below he uses it' he uses it a lot in his playing.
    i don't know anything about witch cords to use though i think id have an idea when to use them but any ideas were to start would be great.

    thanks Lee.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgqWTZ3E ... 5C2D5A50E1
    http://www.youtube.com/user/hiya7

    to become a bad Gypsy jazz player would be a fine accomplishment!
  • Bob HoloBob Holo Moderator
    Posts: 1,252
    Oh... Ok... different animal entirely. It sounds like he's just bopping around the neck on a Diminished triad. Some guys do that a lot. Use it like a spice - you can get too much of it fairly quick. Some guys do that and pick sixteenth notes, leading with an upward pick motion on the treble-most note of the triad on the first of each beat and then downward sweep-picking the bass, middle, treble of the triad.

    Yes, this is a very different concept than what I understood Howard and Mathieu to be communicating; which is to understand which two or three notes that are the core of each chord so your chord progressions sound cohesive. I'm not a music theory guy - but I suppose you might say the two concepts are exact opposites in some ways, because the nature of a diminished triad is that it doesn't really have a core... or tonal center or whatever.

    But all of this is beyond my understanding of music theory so I'll check out at this point.
    You get one chance to enjoy this day, but if you're doing it right, that's enough.
  • If you are going to do chord melodies or use chords as part of your lead statements a good understanding of harmony is required.

    Whether you get that solely by ear, in which case you likely would not be asking the question the way you are, or by a combination of ear training and theory study, one needs to understand and be able to use the concepts of voice leading, common tones and suspension, contrapuntal movement and such.

    Django, by the way, was an absolute master at this, in spite of having no theory training whatsoever.AFAIK.

    Try learning the melody of one of the tunes on the B string alone and then add one note above and one note below on the adjacent e and g strings. Once your ear tells you you are getting the right notes on the E and G strings you will be teaching yourself the rudiments of this
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
  • jonpowljonpowl Hercules, CA✭✭✭ Dupont MD-100, Altamira M01F
    Posts: 613
    Perhaps you are already using tabs to learn songs, but if not, that may be the way to start using chords in your solos. I just looked at a tab of Django's Tiger and it appears to have some chords in the melody. Douce Ambiance has one series of chords, as well. At one time, I downloaded a zip file called 128 Gypsy power tabs, but I can't find the link now. You can use TuxGuitar or TabEdit to open the tabs. I believe they are both freeware. PM me and I'll be glad to send the 128 Gypsy power tabs zip file @ 706 kb.
  • jonpowljonpowl Hercules, CA✭✭✭ Dupont MD-100, Altamira M01F
    Posts: 613
    Here is a link that has quite a few tabs and can be downloaded in one file: http://www.hotclub.co.uk/ptab/powertab.html
    TabEdit: http://www.tabledit.com/welcome/whatsn_e.shtml
    TuxGuitar: http://www.tuxguitar.com.ar/
    Always use your antivirus to scan downloads just to be safe.
  • LeeWinterLeeWinter New
    Posts: 18
    Thanks everyone.
    my theory is zero i hardly know the name of a cord so i have to see something on tab or someones fingers playing it to learn' i never went to school I'm not sure if that's my problem but i am doing OK with my progress witch rather than learning Django tab's note for note i have been learning arpeggios Django licks phrases and so on and making my own solo's out of what i can play but of course at the moment although I'm getting solid with what i know my runs for say Tiger and Sheik are very similar with my limited knowledge so along with licks and ornaments i thought the Cord Melody's would be a great tool to try and learn i just wondered if there was a commonly used cord shape or run i could start with?

    i will hit the tabs hard for tips cheers everyone.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/hiya7

    to become a bad Gypsy jazz player would be a fine accomplishment!
  • pickitjohnpickitjohn South Texas Corpus, San Antonio, AustinVirtuoso Patenotte 260
    Posts: 936
    Jazz said:

    "Try learning the melody of one of the tunes on the B string alone and then add one note above and one note below on the adjacent e and g strings. Once your ear tells you you are getting the right notes on the E and G strings you will be teaching yourself the rudiments of this"

    Perfect idea I find when I try that I find chords I never knew existed.

    If you have a chance check out soundslice. It was a effort of Adrian Holovaty

    you should create an account and then check out what is posted there.

    here is one that shows what your asking about.
    Django playing Daphane

    http://www.soundslice.com/tabs/5222/dja ... aphne-tab/

    Here is a previous post to soundslice is Launched

    viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11239&hilit=soundslice
    Wish it all went to soundslice automatically.

    Chords, Tab, and Slooooow Down 50%

    Sure is a great teaching tool.

    Thanks Adrian

    pick on

    pickitjohn
  • Minor swing. Chord melody basics
    On th B string. F3 F6 F10

    Add in on E string the second time you play that F1 F5 F10

    Add in the third timeon the G string F2 F7 F10.

    You have just played a d minor triad in three positions with the melody line through the chord

    Once you have that down figure out the second phrase of the minor swing intro on the b string and do the same thing.

    Once you have both of these grooved play around with changing the note on the bottom. Find what notes are consonant and which ones are dissonant. Follow your ear. Then do the same for the E string. Always keeping the melody line on the B string.

    Once you have mastered that come back to this thread and refresh it and I will give you some ideas to play with moving through multi strings

    Try this with other simple melodies you are really familiar with. Xmas carols etc. soon your ear will tell you what YOU like.
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
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