upstroke / downstroke dilema

T1mothy

Hello there this will be my very first post here. I am fairly new to this genre and I just finished transcribing Douce Ambiance (beautiful song) and while I regularly practice it to speed it up I decided to tackle yet another song. I absolutely fell in love with the song called Django s tiger.

I started today and Im not past 0:30. It really is damn hard. Doesnt put me down altho I assume its not the best beginner kinda song to learn. I was wondering for instance about the first Cm6 arpeggio when Django hits the high G on the e string 15th fret and goes down with the notes I have no idea how to utilize my right hand for changing strings e -> E. Im having no problem getting various runs in the opposite direction which happen to include fast strinchanges to a solid tempo. But this way Im fairly clueless.

Downstroke on lets say e to downstroke on B is just awkward for my righthand right now. Feels like too much movement. Downstroke on e leading to upstroke on B is also awkward for my righthand. Ideally id like to end with upstroke on one string and downstroke on the higher one (elevation) but obviously that doesnt happen when you play only one note per string.

So I was wondering if you guys could perhaps tell me to focus on downstroking situations like theese or learning to upstroke on the next string after downstroking on the one below it (elevation) or that Im completely missing something because I wouldnt be surprised at all. Sorry for such a long first post.

Cheers
-Tim

Charles Meadows

I think the consensus here would be to learn gypsy technique with its double down strokes on the descending arps. I still find those awkward at really fast tempos. There are players coming out of other backgrounds who "cheat" and skip some of the double downstrokes in order to keep a more relaxed feel.

I think a helpful exercise is practicing 3 notes per string with the DUD pattern, going up and then down a scale. This yields sweeps going up and double downs going back down.

I'm not sure there's right answer. I think if you gave Stochelo Rosenberg or Angelo Debarre a rock song to play they'd use gypsy technique because that's the default way to play. They might or might not decide to try just alternate picking to get a more authentic sound.

My advice (although you'll find many more seasoned opinions here) would be to try the gypsy rest stroke style to get the basics down and then decide whether adapting it to your own style is the best fit.

I'll leave you with a cool version of Django's tiger:

T1mothy

oh so they do downstroke even in situations like theese. Ill stick to it then. I feel dumb now but didnt really think of looking at stochelo s short django s tiger clip and watch his right hand but now I see its true. Well thank you very much. The excercise example you gave me as quite cool aswell. Oh yeah and Angelo playing this tune is just so brilliant.

I dont know how to tackle this whole gypsy jazz thing to be honest. Ideally id be perfectly happy if just learning to play Django s tunes would be enough to get good at improvising over all theese lovely tunes but obviously if time spent studying theory to certain extent (Im not much into all theese cryxolidian modes and norwegian scales) or learning all notes on the fretboard or practicing arpeggios or learning certain chords or idk what else could save me time Id be all over it but since I have no idea if I should do theese things and if then how important are the specific activities..

That would help me to probably organize my schedule. Until I get enlighted, I will learn to play Django s songs. Once again I want to say thank you for such a fast and informative reply. Provided me the guidance I was looking for.
Cheers
-Tim

Jazzaferri

Welcome to the group. A reference for Gypsy style picking is....Gypsy Picking...by Michael Horowitz

Charles Meadows

There are a few patterns that are really high yield. Minor arp, diminished arp, 7b9 arp (basically major chord with a diminished stacked on top). I'd recommend you check out the Rosenberg academy site. You can join for 35$ or something - and that gives you access to all the tabs and backing tracks. The sheet music has the pick directions and fingerings that Stochelo uses so it's really insightful.

Overall I've found Stochelo harder to get than Angelo. Stochelo uses a lot of downstrokes, even refingering arps to be nothing but sequential 2 note sweeps. Angelo Debarre (my personal favorite) is much more approachable I think - since he uses all 4 fingers more and tends to play more "linear" (as Dennis so accurately put it) lines. He still plays completely gypsy style though.

I think as far as theory goes the gypsy players don't know scales like a true jazz guitarist would. But they know what notes to play over what chord. More by feel than by academic knowledge.

Bones

Timothy, I don't think that there is a Cm6 in Django's Tiger unless you are referring to the F7 descending arp (which is essentially a Cm6 I guess). For double down strokes going from high E to B string (for instance) shorten your downstroke on the E string to speed it up to be able to get to the B string faster or so I understand from what Stochelo says/does. Similarly, from the B string to the G string, don't do a full 'rest stroke' (resting the pick on the E string after striking the B string) shorten the stroke a bit so it doesn't hit the E string before moving up to strike the G string. Stochelo calls this a 'normal' stroke rather than a rest stroke.

That section actually has a triple downstoke (I think) which is really hard to do at speed (for me anyway) but you can modify the arp to add the A on the B-string (after the C) so that you have 2 notes on the B string and then only have a double downstroke between the G and D strings.

I hope this helps.

Jazzaferri

F7 = F A C Eb. ....,,.F9= F A C Eb G.

In standard jazz voicings for a comping instrument the root and fifth are the most lcommon notes to be dropped.

Cm6 = C Eb (G) A.

Playing Rootless F7 or a second inversion Cm6 without the 5 (G) gives the same notes.

If the bass is playing an F the Cm6 would sound (if full chord) more like F9

To speed up downstrokes try playing everything downstroke for a few months while practicing. Really helped me and I still do some practice like that

T1mothy

I assume I meant the F7 in that case. Eitherway I want to thank you all for the brilliant answerss. Also I just want to share with you that Im somewhere around 1:00 with my learning process and my fingers are dying! Must be the 13- 56 elixirs I have on my Larrrivee OM. Hopefully it will make me build up some strength over time. How about you guys, what are you working on? For me theres just thousands of songs I dont know how to play yet and dont even know when is the time to start trying improvising. But right now the music feels too good for me to pass on it!

Bones

Timothy, enjoy the process! Yes there is TONS of great material. I'm currently working on Appel Direct including DR's solo.

Jazzaferri

In learning, one has a choice, one can learn a whole lot of stuff quickly, and play a whole lot of stuff not very well, or one can master a few pieces and slowly add to that collection of mastered pieces.

Progress in the first one seems faster at first, then one hits the wall. Long run its faster to master one and move on to the next.

T1mothy

Or you simply can learn stuff slowly like me and not master anything either. Just learning the solo in django s tiger that is about 1, 1/2 minute long took me 3 days. Any ideas when should I tackle improvisation?

EDIT: Its not even 70 seconds long
EDIT II: Im noticing this strange thing when occasionally I accidentally altho correctly play some part of song with a different fretting position. This only happens when Im learning something. I also happen to think of altered melodic lines when learning a song. Not when Im actually playing the song with a backing track. Hell Im so focused on the original "right" notes and the original fingerings when the track is on.