brazilian vs indian rosewood

jackspoon

Hi Guys,
Never posted on here before, but I've been a reader for years.
I have a query that I'm hoping someone more experienced can help me with.

I've commisioned a gypsy jazz guitar and am trying to choose between the above two woods for the back and sides.

I really want an old school traditional gypsy sound, without too many overtones.
I've been told that Indian is the best to achieve this. My problem is that I've always wanted a guitar made from brazilian rosewood!

I guess what I'm asking is, is there a noticable difference in the tonal qualities of these two woods? If i'm not going to be able to tell the difference then I should go for the Brazilian. I'm far more concerned about sound than aesthetics though so if Indian will noticeably give me the sound I'm looking for then I will go for that.

Obviously Brazilian is considerably more expensive than Indian but please disregard cost for the purposes of this question.

So does anyone out there have any experience in this area? I would very pleased to hear from you if you do.

Many thanks,

Jack

Jazzaferri

There is a small difference in the two but a competent luthier builds the guitar as a whole instrument. Each top, even of the same tone wood will have its own unique properties although two adjacent slices from the same flèche will be very close.

Only thing about Brazilian is you should have papers for it and a travel card if you go to other countries. It's an endangered species and customs officials have substantial powers to seize things without the proper documentation.

Craig Bumgarner

While solid back & sides can influence the sound of a guitar some (though much less than people give it credit for), keep in mind most gypsy guitars are made with laminated backs and sides and it is only the outer layer that will be rosewood (or whatever). The lamination is usually 3 to 5 layers and the inner layers are usually comparatively inexpensive, low mass hardwoods like poplar or mahogany. By weight, the glue involved makes up at least 30% of the total. So it is easy to see that the rosewood on the outside makes up only 10-15% of total laminate and the tonal quality of one kind of rosewood veneer vs. another won't make a noticeable difference to the sound.

Laminated b/s are the norm for these guitars. This is how Henri Selmer Company built them and most of the Sicilian/Parisian builders that followed. There are the occasional ones that use solid wood. Michael Dunn and Shelley Park today use solid for instance but they are the exception. Solid rosewood b/s, especially Brazilian, would be considerably heavier than laminated b/s which can be very light (fast attack). For better or worse, solid b/s are not likely to sound like laminated.

I've heard a couple guitars with solid Indian Rosewood that sounded very good. I built one with solid bubinga b/s a number of years ago which also sounded pretty good, but 99% of what you see out there is laminated. This is considered part of the style.

Indian rosewood cultivation and harvesting is controlled by the Indian government with the hope that it will be sustainable. Some people question this in the long run, but for now EIR is readily available.

Brazilian is another whole game and basically the game is over. Finding a good solid Brazilian b/s set that has its paperwork in order will cost big bucks. Even veneers are quite expensive in the size needed for a guitar and have the same endangered species paperwork problem (if not in order, you can have the guitar confiscated at a border crossing with no chance of getting it back). Most of the Brazilian that was good for guitars is gone. What is left is a lot of wild grain stump wood and/or flat sawn wood that to me is not very appealing. BR in its day was gorgeous stuff but times have changed. It is a highly endangered species and frankly, I think it is time to abandon our lust for Brazilian and move on.

For cosmetic purposes, some of the Central & South American rosewoods like cocobolo and Honduras rosewood look pretty close to Brazilian. If you want that very nice even/straight grain Brazilian which to me is the way a guitar should look, consider an older used guitar that was built with it.

jackspoon

Thanks for your considered replies guys. I knew I could rely on this forum to talk some sense into me! I think you are right Craig that it's time to move on from Brazilian. Jazzaferri, I agree about a good luthier building the instrument holistically. I'm going to go for whatever he thinks will deliver the sound i'm looking for and stop worrying about it.

Al Watsky

These days with import restrictions on BRW being what they are the potential difficulties are not worth the payback. I own several guitars that are BRW back and sides. Only one has "papers" the others are old. If I'm traveling with an instrument do I really want to explain myself to customs ? No. Not that thats often necessary, but still. With these French/Italian Selmer types and their laminate back and sides ? Why bother. I prefer the look of the straight grain RW anyway. IRW will do that nicely.

TexasRed

Theres a pretty big difference between IRW and BRW when it comes to solid wood. But if your using laminate i would just stick with some nice looking IRW, i doubt you would be able to discern the difference between irw and brw laminate

Charles Meadows

I find it interesting that some builders use solid wood for GJ guitars. To me there's such a difference in sound. There isn't a laminated wood flattop acoustic around that can get the bluegrass sound. I would have assumed that the laminated wood construction is integral the the GJ guitar sound.

As far as the woods go I would agree that in solid wood guitars there's a difference, but probably not to the degree that some would think. To me indian rosewood dreadnought guitars tend to sound a bit muddy, especially with sitka tops. Mahogany back and sides with an adirondack top for me!

Jazzaferri

@TexasRed ....I know a few luthiers who would debate that difference with you.....if one assumes two things

1. Comparing it as a tone wood

2. Comparing the same grade of wood.

Charles Meadows

That's probably a valid point Jazz.

The best brazilian guitars are the older ones. The newer ones are all very high end and usually made with better top woods and bracing than the majority of indian rosewood guitars. So a true apples to apples comparison is probably hard. I'd say that brazilian tends to have a little more bite. But the top and overall construction probably affects sound more than the back/side wood.

TexasRed

Jazzaferri wrote: »

@TexasRed ....I know a few luthiers who would debate that difference with you.....if one assumes two things

1. Comparing it as a tone wood

2. Comparing the same grade of wood.

Yes it's a subjective thing, and really impossible to truly answer. There's always going to be someone who disagrees.

But Just using my experience as a guide, Braz has a lot more clarity, a true mid scoop, while Indian rosewood is deeper and emphasizes the bass more.

as far as laminates go, some builders actually use more of the main wood in their laminates instead of just the back layer for aesthetics. I imagine the process that the builder uses can make the difference between an IRW laminate and a BRW laminate more discernible.

Hope that made sense

But I agree with Charles, wood choice is just one part of the whole.

Jazzaferri

As each guitar is different, IMO the luthiers who say it's impossible to truly tell have logic on their side.

Bob Benedetto, once built a great sounding Archtop out of flat sawn pine, knots and all. His comment was "maybe there is no such thing as bad tone wood, only bad luthiers"

Probably somewhat tongue in cheek, but his words stuck home to anyone who had heard that guitar.