Thin plastic picks do work

Patrick

I posted the following message under the "technique" chapter but I thought it might also be appropriate in this gear chapter if some do not look at all the chapters every time. So here it is:

Hello all,

I've used very thick picks for years when playing gypsy jazz (3,5 to 4 mm in different materials, Wegen plastic or tortoise shell in fact). But the more it goes, and the thinner the pick I use. Lately I've been successfully using picks that are 2mm or even 1,5 mm thick. In fact, it's after seeing a Bireli Lagrene concert and noticing that he got his perfect tone out od his Dupont with a very simple Dunlop tortex 1,5 mm thick pick (the one that has a light purple color) that the idea came to me. So I've tried it and the same one in 2mm thickness and after some adjustments I noticed it works just as well. You can get a very nice tone out of them.
Also one important aspect I noticed is that when using thin picks it makes you work harder on the right hand technique as it has to compensate for the natural power and fat tone you usually have with a very thick pick. But the right hand technique can be adapted in such a way that you get just about the same effect or very close (great power and pretty fat tone, not too bright sounding). So I even found it a good way to work on a better thechnique to use such picks for a long while as when you switch back to thick picks you really get a monstruous tone...

Do some of you use fairly thin picks (or even the Dunlop Tortex ones I mention) ? Why or why not ? What's your experience whith thinner picks and how did this affect your right hand technique (if it did) ?

Thanks in advance for any input on the subject.

take care,

Patrick
Paris, France

Josh Hegg

Patrick,

Thanks for the post! When I first started playing GJ some one told me that you need a fat pick. So I went to the store and got what I though was fat pick. At that time the fattest pick there was 1mm. All my friends thought I was nuts for using such a thick pick! As time went on and I found out that my 1mm pick was actually thin in the GJ world I started looking for something a bit thicker. In my town there is a blue grass festival so I want there in search of a nice pick. I looked in all the booths for a good pick only to find the same selection as most music stores. However there was one booth I found that had a coffee mug full of odd and thick picks. The mug had a sticker on it that said $3 each. So I pick out about 5 and took them home and started playing with them. Some thicker then others. That was about 2 years ago. Now on to my point.... I play with all sorts of picks now. I have some that are 1.5 mm all the way up to 5mm. Depending on who I'm playing with and how we play together. I find that a thinner pick works much better for rhythm and has a nice sweeping sound that the fat picks just deos not have. I have some made from natural materials and others made from man made. They all sound different. Don't limit your self to one kind of pick. Sure I have my favorite but there are times when I want a sound that a different pick can give me. Use what works for you.

djangology

There is NO reason to use a thin pick. The real reason for a FAT pick:

Its important that when you do rest stroke picking properly that you are "loosely" holding your pick. Since fat picks are more capable of "wobbling" between your fingers, they work FAR better. The important thing is that the pick is able to "wobble". That is why you don't use a thin pick since a thin pick will kill your rest stroke. Actually, the faster I play the more loosely I hold the pick and the more it "wobbles".

Also, if you use a pick which is 3.5mm or larger you will start loosing this "wobble" effect as the pick gets thicker.

Gypsy picks are 2.5mm for a very good reason I think. I realize that all sorts of picks were used before Wegens came along but whatever inspired Wegen to create a "standard" pick was absolutely correct I think.

Josh Hegg

What is correct for one player might not be for another. Every ones hand is different and I don't think that one pick or even one guitar is right for every one. I like a really thick neck on my guitars but other people like thinner necks. I play better on an instrument with a thicker, wider neck but that does not mean that every one should play the same instrument I do. I think it is the same for picks, strings, guitars, etc.

djangology

I agree with you completely. Its good that people are trying different things. When all is said and done then the US players will hopefully generate our own sound and ideas. :-)

dennis

djangology wrote:

There is NO reason to use a thin pick. The real reason for a FAT pick:

Its important that when you do rest stroke picking properly that you are "loosely" holding your pick. Since fat picks are more capable of "wobbling" between your fingers, they work FAR better. The important thing is that the pick is able to "wobble". That is why you don't use a thin pick since a thin pick will kill your rest stroke. Actually, the faster I play the more loosely I hold the pick and the more it "wobbles".

Also, if you use a pick which is 3.5mm or larger you will start loosing this "wobble" effect as the pick gets thicker.

Gypsy picks are 2.5mm for a very good reason I think. I realize that all sorts of picks were used before Wegens came along but whatever inspired Wegen to create a "standard" pick was absolutely correct I think.

sorry jon, but i don't agree with that, see my reply in the technique section, if that were true, everyone would be using heavy picks...

yet the biggest chop masters in this style all use small picks... angelo has a small tortoise shell pick... stochelo sometimes plays a wegen big city pick.. bireli uses the dunlop 1.5mm and I even saw him play an entire concert using a Jazz III pick!!! Ritary uses a modified 2.0 dunlop pick, it's even thinner because he shaves it a bit... Samson Schmitt uses the 1.5 mm dunlop, etc...

I think i explained everything clearly in the technique section

djangology

alright, ill take a look. i said what I said only because its what I notice in my own playing. i've tried thinner picks and can't do it because i am so used to the size and shape of a Wegen that i'll rub fingers on strings if i use anything else. i do agree that i could make the adjustment to a thin pick if i tried but at the moment i haven't had a good reason.

V-dub

I skeptically tried the Lavender Dunlop 1.5mm for the first time last night and now I am a believer. In my opinion they are a lot easier to handle for fast and precise lead playing even if you use gypsy picking technique. When going back to the wegen, it almost felt bulky and uncomfortable. I can see why Bireli prefers them. Next time I see them at a guitar shop, I'm going to buy them out.

By the way, Yngwie Malmsteen uses the same pick... for better or worse.

One problem with them is that they are very slick on the surface. I noticed it kept rotating inward after a while. I was able to remedy this by lightly cutting a criss-cross pattern on either side with a utility knife. Much better.

For rhythm, its not so good, beacause they dont glide across the strings as smoothly. The thinner picks will "catch" more do to the lack of vertical curvature in the tip and lead to some choppy/loud rhythm. I've been recently made a firm believer that the key to good gypsy rhythm is to be able to get that feather light touch on the 2's and 4's. Most young GJ players hit way too hard.

Bohemian

I am new to gypsy Jazz...though I did mess about with a Saga 250 back in the 90's, I am primarily a finger picker and mandolin player

I have always used .80 to 1.5.. even with mandolin I did not ascribe to the rounded corner thick Dawg picks.. they actually changed the tone of a mandolin into something else that was other than the classic sound I
wanted. Jethro did not use them..

The thick new picks are not used by all players as described in the previous posts. I just got the Bireli video and I did not see one player using a thick new age pick.. perhaps I missed something but so far all modestly thin/thick picks. Dunlop Tortex or similar.

I don't believe these thick picks are the new standard or necessary. And to think that a $15 pick will give you something you couldn't get for a dollar in a thinner pick ,(like those used in decades past to create great music ), is wishful in my opinion.. It's all in what works for you.

Take as an example the array of guitars on the Bireli videos. 12 fret D's, 14 fret D's, round holes and a variety of makes in the oval hole plus Sylvain Luc's nylon string which to my ear was one of the best sounding of the bunch, There is no "standard"

I use Tortex or Claytons.

mchllyne

Dunlop 3mm Big Stubbie--the perfect compromise
Mike

drolling

Just the other day I found a really thin pick lying on the floor that turned out to be fantastic for tremolo picking. So flexible that it literally snapped back and forth across the string with very little effort on my part. I was pretty jazzed about my discovery 'till I realized that I was transfering NO energy whatsoever to the string and consequently my tone had completely evaporated.

Really wanted to love those fat purple ones cause I could get about 50 of 'em for the price of one Wegen. I even tried to replicate the Wegen bevel by painstakingly sanding that Dunlop Stubbie, but alas, it still sounded like sh1t in my right hand. As many have said, players of Bireli's calibre can use anything and still sound great. Me, I need all the help I can get.

Also been experimenting extensively with Dugains in bone, horn and shell, but I keep going back to the Wegen cuz it gives me the best tone. Who knows what it's made of (obviously Michel, and he's not telling) but it certainly ain't delrin or any of the other acrylic/acetate/plastic compounds that pick makers traditionally employ.

What has turned out to be a nice compromise for me are those sarod picks, but only the ebony ones. It must have something to do with density because the rosewood ones just don't sound as good. At three bucks a pop it's not the end of the world if I lose one.