Beat 1, 3 - upstroke/downstroke - essentially a continuity?

Passacaglia

Hope this is framed clearly.

Working the book, really trying to emulate the sound on Michael's tracks...by my ear, in the basic rhythm sections, anyway, I am not hearing a distinguishing stroke between the upstroke and downstroke of beat 1, 3; is this because the up/down strokes are so small and "piano" in effect, that you end up with a continuous, quiet, "rolling" beat composed of the two strokes, smoothly continuous - really don't want two small, discrete strokes - however small?

I ask, because I'm also wondering if this goes to La Pompe styles - something I haven't gotten into yet, and don't expect to for months (years?) to come, not until I am totally clean on basics. However, if this is a matter of it being a "dry" beat 1, 3, (and that a more pronounced du-duh up/down on 1, 3 is a matter of another La Pompe style) can someone chime in, that that is in fact what I'm hearing, and what Michael is executing?

MichaelHorowitz

Passacaglia wrote:

Hope this is framed clearly.

I am not hearing a distinguishing stroke between the upstroke and downstroke of beat 1, 3; is this because the up/down strokes are so small and "piano" in effect, that you end up with a continuous, quiet, "rolling" beat composed of the two strokes, smoothly continuous - really don't want two small, discrete strokes - however small?

Yes, it is done very quickly and subtly, often so fast you can't make out the individual strokes. Especially in modern styles (and some modern styles leave out the upstroke all together). The pre-war Django style has a slower upstroke so you may want to start with that.

Passacaglia

Clears it up, thanks, Michael.

While we're on the subject of the book, I daily work this book, along with the opening/warmup sequences of Stephane Wrembel's book, Michael's Gypsy Picking, as well as John Jorgenson's intro book.

I am accustomed to the notion of an "apprenticeship" style of learning, having been both a French chef, and apprentice to a Japanese master ("uchideshi," live in apprentice). What I am trying to say is I understand the notion of working rhythm training solely until some level of mastery there has been accomplished, before moving on to lead playing.

That said, would anyone have any thoughts about using at least some portion of Gypsy Picking, or other portions of books featuring at least elementary arpeggio/scales/lead exercises, concurrent to rhythmic training, or is the general consensus (if such a thing as "consensus" can be obtained) that literally all elements of lead training should be held off until the gypsy rhythmic work is solidly learned?

JazzDawg

When you get comfortable with a picking pattern, look in Part 3 for corresponding examples which can be used in developing a sense of lead. After picking exercise #5, you'll begin to see some of the patterns and arps Django used in some of his soloing.

I'm working through the Gypsy Picking book, but I try to learn those arps too. I guess, you should learn to walk before you run, but not having a GJ teacher around or others to check your technique, it's a bit of a challenge to say the least. I can't help just trying to spend at least a portion of my practice time learning some elements of soloing along the way...

bbwood_98

Hi,
Great concept- I play rhythm . . . and basically don't solo unless it is needed, or for educational reasons . . .that said- I transcribe a lot! Most teachers work on the rhythm first- but switch to solos during a lesson to keep the student interested, and some of the technique carries over. Also- Its good to understand the lead playing going on around you- so that you can hear and adapt- after all its jazz, man!
Learn rhythm, and find someone to jam with!!
Upstroke is "continuous" part of one sound if not one motion, and is optional as michael pointed out- though as I am learning- its good to be able to adapt ones rhythm to each player - lead or another rhythm player. My new idea is to (when there is more then one rhythm player) lock in however I can . . . hopefully stealing the entire stroke of the other rhythm player! Good luck!
Finally- if you can't find a guru- make a band to teach yourself, and surround yourself with better or much better players- thats what i did- after aprenticing! Also- mastery is difficult; try to never gain the ego that goes with it- just be good and remember that everyone has something to teach you!
Ben
Ps. geez do i go on or what!

Passacaglia

Thanks, both - great, specific advice. Jazz, I'm not as pure as I have made myself out to be, as before getting Gypsy Rhythm and Denis's Accompaniment DVD (man, what an incredible resource), I had started in on the "Musical Examples" section of Gypsy Picking. Michael did a fantastic job of making it too tasty to avoid, methinks...

My biggest problem at the moment is cooling it, else I end up with a serious case of carpal, as I'm practicing like a mad antic (making up for decades of lost time, is my best guess, though I'm a bit of an obsessive freak on training, generally)....oddly enough, switching at least to some extent between rhythm and lead work gives at least a bit of a break on me old, tired left hand.

I think going forward I intend to heavily emphasize rhythm work. but not be religious of avoiding all solo practice; feeling that so long as I'm truly working to master fundamentals, and not short-changing the body-mind wiring, it's all good.

By the way - Jazzdawg - saw Alfonso Ponticelli last Wednesday at the Green Mill. My god - incredible experience. I really love his playing, and what a tight, gifted bunch.