FS Bireli's Selmer No. 665

redblues

Robin Nolan spotted this first, a steal at 20K

http://cgi.ebay.fr/190595631153#ht_556wt_1174

MichaelHorowitz

One thing they don't mention is that the back was entirely replaced on that one.

Michael Bauer

The "buy it now" price is actually $28,000 euros, not $20,000. which sadly, takes it above bargain rates, espacially if it's not entirely original. Probably a great guitar, though.

thickpick

Here's an interesting post by **** in 2003: http://launch.dir.groups.yahoo.com/grou ... sage/14064

Three years ago John restored Semer #665 for Jacques Mazzoleni I had played it before it needed restoration and after of course. Even with a complete new back, a re-lamination of the sides, a neck re-set etc this guitar still has that Selmer punch and volume. This guitar was my favorite out of 4 or 5 Selmers that Jacques had on a booth that we shared in Long Island a few years ago.

Hard to imagine there was a time not too long ago when you could find 5 Selmers sitting at a booth in Long Island.

frater

So I must be completely wrong because watching the clip with Dutronc I'm not totally blown away by the tone of the guitar, especially considering The Master himself is playing it!

RKatz

In terms of the sound, could it not just be the recording? It also looks like it could be a battle to play?
Are these really great guitars or is there just a collectors fetish for these original icons of gyspy jazz? Does the fact that Bireli owns/owned it increase its value? What is the correct value for this guitar now? Thanks.

Michael Bauer

The simple answer is, "Of course it could be the recording." To me recordings are most valuable when the same equipment and the same player are playing in the same place, like most of Michael's recordings on Djangobooks. Then you get a relative sense of how one guitar sounds compared to another. Change the player, equipment, and place, and you lose that.

Like any guitars, there are good and bad Selmers (or Busatos, or Favinos, or di Mauros...). But one thing I have learned is that a not-so-good one can sometimes become really good with enough patience (to find the best setup for that guitar) and playing (which gets them into and keeps them in fighting trim). Selmer 862 wasn't a very good guitar when I bought it, but I was obsessed with the fundamental tone it had. That led to two years of work before it reached the place which, according to Benoit Convert, it has become one of the best Selmers he's played. It is so sensitive that I can take the bridge off and put it back on in what seems the exact same place, and yet the guitar will vary in tone. I've also learned that it hates new strings, as does "The Beast", the 50's Busato that I have. The Joseph di Mauro, on the other hand, loves brand new strings. The 30's Busato I used to own sounded awful all winter, and amazing all summer. It just loved humidity, and responded to it more than most guitars do. I don't think some owners have figured this out, and simply think that "it is what it is". It takes alot of listening especially to other players opinions), experimentation (and sadly sometimes money) to bring some old instruments to their potential.

Fetish? I don't think so. I have had the good fortune to play alot of great modern instruments that sound fabulous, but to me they don't quite compare to the best vintage boxes. Some of them will in 20-80 years though. The problem with vintage guitars is that they become so valuable that players can't afford to buy them, and very few people would want to risk gigging regularly with them. They become special occasion guitars, and given the rarity of some of them, that's probably for the best. One problem alot of players have is that they play 'em as they find 'em, and decide one is good or bad without putting the effort into getting the best from them. That's normal, I think. Wrembel, when he first saw 862 said to me, "It's just a guitar." Now he's obsessed with it and says it inspires him to play things he's never played before. That's what a vintage guitar can do for even a top player.

I'll never be a great player, but I am in awe of these instruments and want to do what I can to get each of them to its peak, and to make them available for people to see, play, gig with and record while I have them. I feel I owe it to the instruments to get them recorded, and to those who haven't been quite as lucky as I have been to give them a taste of what the guitars were like that were around in Django's day. When I get to see people's eyes light up, from the meek to the mighty, I get my reward. That and playing really cool guitars every day...

As to value, Selmers should be expensive, since they are rare and nearly every modern gypsy guitar is copying that look and sound. Tastes change, and alot of modern players want a sound that is not very traditional, but for the most part I think that the original of any iconic instrument will be much more desirable and more valuable than almost any copy. Good original petite bouche Selmers seem to command prices well above $30K in most cases, and I think the day of the $40K Selmer will be here soon enough. Good d-holes with resonators, especially 32's are already at $40K and above, and are so rare that they will keep going up.

There is value in the fact that it is Birelli's guitar, but to me that's offset somewhat if the back and sides aren't original. Value? It's what someone will pay for it. If you want Birelli's Selmer badly enough, it's a bargain. If you want a totally original Selmer, it's probably overpriced. That's someting each buyer has to decide.

frater

Of course the record of those videos is not that good and the fact that two guitars are playing so close messes up things even more. And yet... I still have the feeling that Selmer doen't have the "twang" and roundness of a very good one (nor the infamous "fart" effect!). Plus Bireli seems not completely at ease with the neck, and if he'not...

Michael Bauer

Agreed, Frater. BTW, what do you think of the Chaput Selmer that Mazzoleni has for sale? What a pity that that thing has been so badly raped! I'll be playing it in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know what it sounds like. I'll try not to look at it while I play it.

Joli Gadjo

Is this real ?
Why would Bireli sell something on ebaY ? With an account that doesn't have any history ?
And just provide a Cell Phone Number ?
Can anyone validate this ?
Anyone can put a picture and a youtube video of Bireli and sell a Cigano, isn't it ?

MichaelHorowitz

frater wrote:

(nor the infamous "fart" effect!)