Roma Swing

Twang · September 2020

ChrisMartin · September 2020

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/103683#Comment_103683

Ah, sorry, you miss my point. I know very well who and what Black Sabbath were, I am 65 and British, so yes, in my teens I was a fan too. We even back then had a lesser known but similar group called Black Widow who regularly played our club.

What I meant was that the word Black in their name is no more offensive than Gypsy if you know the true meaning of the word but there are those who will choose to find offence wherever they can in this modern PC age. Fifty years ago nobody would have complained about the word Black but I bet today somebody somewhere would make something of it and call it offensive when four white guys "appropriate" (as bbwood referred to it) the word even though no offence is intended. Of course nobody will complain about the South African choir Ladysmith Black Mambazo using the word but.......

Strangely I was thinking of using something very like your "...I know this is a stretch, but I suppose it would be like starting a band in Europe, and saying you play "Niger Blues" instead of Delta Blues...." analogy but even I thought that might get misunderstood or upset someone.

To simplify then, lets just say offence is in the eye of the beholder.

cmcmurphy22 · September 2020

PC cancel culture is the lamest most boring movement I’ve ever seen. if the sinti musicians themselves call it Gypsy jazz then it’s fine. There should be no concessions to the PC police when they overstep.

Quadropenta · September 2020

Just my opinion, and keep in mind that I may be a snob... :^) , Musicians who play the Bill Monroe repertoire etc. on standard Bluegrass instruments are playing Bluegrass. Musicians who play the Django repertoire etc. from the swing era Hot Club are playing Hot Club Swing. It wasn't Jazz. "Jazz" in that era referred to Trad Jazz or eventually Bebop. I guess playing post Swing era Jazz standards, with Hot Club sound is Gypsy Jazz. I wouldn't call Hot Club repertoire music Gypsy Jazz though. Doesn't seem like an accurate name, though I guess its now the name of the genre.

Bones · October 2020

This issue has come up on the forum before and my recollection is that it isn't really a 100% settled topic. It's not a matter of "pc cancel culture" (whatever that is) it's a matter of being polite. Certainly the "g" word has some negative etymology since it has been historically used as a "racial" slur.

"The English term gipsy or gypsy[18] is commonly used to indicate Romani people, Tinkers and Travellers, and use of the word gipsy in modern-day English is so pervasive (and is a legal term under English law—see below) that some Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names. However—according to the few who study the Romani people and a large percentage of the Romani people—the word has been tainted by its use as a racial slur and a pejorative connoting illegality and irregularity,[19][20][21][22][23][24][25] and some modern dictionaries either recommend avoiding use of the word gypsy entirely or give it a negative or warning label"

Just because some Romani use the "g" word, if in doubt it's probably best to avoid it. The litmus test I use is granny's advice, if you wouldn't want the whole world to know you did it, don't do it. If I was lucky enough to be sitting in a room with a bunch of Romani I would definitely avoid using the term. I certainly wouldn't bandy it about and risk offending someone since, as the above quote states, a "large percentage" of Romani might take offense. It's kind of like (but I guess to a lesser extent) in the US a lot of black people use the "n" word but there just isn't a situation where a white person should use that term because of it's obvious historical use as a racial slur. Again, that's not "pc" it's just common sense and common courtesy. I'm not necessarily saying that the "g" word has the same magnitude of negative use as the "n" word historically, just that both words have some degree of negative etymology. Whatever the Romani want to do about use of that term is up to them. I'm not part of that cultural heritage so personally I would just play it safe. Some Romani might not care but why would I bother to risk offending someone?

I believe the consensus is that Django considered himself a jazz musician. That said, the word "jazz" also has some potentially sketchy etymology :-)

billyshakes · October 2020

It's not a matter of "pc cancel culture" (whatever that is??!!) it's a matter of being polite.

This. Thank you, Bones.

cmcmurphy22 · October 2020

When your posters get taken down by the PC police and you’re worried about some possible sanctions coming from the school for using a term that’s completely accepted as standard within the community, then I’m afraid it is about “cancel culture”.

ChrisMartin · October 2020

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/103717#Comment_103717

Exactly.

When a word that has for ages existed legitimately in the English language suddenly becomes off limits because others have misused it, maybe it is time to take back our freedom of speech rather than always give in to what might be the new accepted norm. As I said, those who want to be offended will be, the rest of us should be able to speak freely as long as our intention and meaning is clear.

And there is part of the problem. When speaking face to face the context of using any word is clear and not easily misunderstood. The written word in this internet age however? Too often offence is taken where none was intended, and some time after beer o'clock you can see it on any internet forum where the arguments start and those who disagree are called 'trolls' or 'haters' just because they dared to express a different view. I am not saying that applies on this forum, just that if there is the slightest chance that the meaning of someone's chosen vocabulary can be misinterpreted, it will be.

I blame Cher, it was the grouping together of Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves that started it..........