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Weird question about playing rhythm

MikeKMikeK Asheville, NCNew Altamira M-10, Altamira M-30 D-Cedar
in Gypsy Rhythm Posts: 456

Does anyone else have this peculiar situation when they play rhythm? I've noticed that certain players that I gig with regularly (even my violinist) seem to have such a natural swing when they're soloing that it "makes me a better rhythm guitarist" when I chunk for them. Maybe it's just in my head, but I dont think so. And note that I'm not trying to point fingers or find fault with the players that I play with who don't provide this seemingly-natural rhythm in their soloing. There are some fine players that I play with who dont seem to be triggering this service for me. But when I'm comping for the ones that do, it's almost like a metronome is secretly running beneath their solos/heads and I delight in the ease of comping for them. I'm perfectly willing to admit my part in this--perhaps a stronger player would have that virtual metronome going in their head & therefore this wouldn't be an issue. But I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this?

BucoBillDaCostaWilliams
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Comments

  • Russell LetsonRussell Letson Prodigy
    Posts: 383

    I noticed this long ago, particularly with my late playing partner and mentor. We played together for nearly 20 years, and every time he took the lead, it was like hitting a stretch of smooth, newly-paved road. I've had a similar experience with the sax player in a jazz group I sit in with. I can't locate exactly what's going on, but the feeling is unmistakeable. I do know that my old partner had terrific time**--my earliest memories of his bandstand tutelage were the times he would lean over and whisper, "You're speeding up." Now I'm the guy who does that in a jam situation, though after the fact, since the speeder is usually across the circle.

    **He also had a good ear for pitch. He had worked at the college radio station and could tell when they used one of the turntables that he knew ran a bit slow.

    MikeK
  • richter4208richter4208 ✭✭✭
    Posts: 540

    A player that improvises with poor timing can throw off the whole band. I've encountered this when practicing with a band and we throw a metronome on to keep us honest. Players with good timing don't have any problem but it will certainly bring out issues with some folks. These players play like that regardless of how steady you are keeping the rhythm considering it's even a problem when you have the metronome on.

    And that is to say it's not like you can't get thru a song with a player with timing issues, it's that they're sense of timing has some underlying issues and I believe that is actually what you are talking about Mike, it hurts you ability to support them because you are constantly feeling them pushing pulling against the tempo (and not in an intended way)

    MikeK
  • ChiefbigeasyChiefbigeasy New Orleans, LA✭✭✭ Dupont MDC 50; The Loar LH6, JWC Catania Swing; Ibanez AFC151-SRR Contemporary Archtop
    Posts: 371

    When I hear the soloist play out of time, it does distract me a bit, but my job has the rhythm guitar in this instance is to remain rock steady with the bass. I’ve got to hope that during my solo, if I do get off track, or, more artistically, if I try to do something strange and interesting, at least I know I can fall back on the support of the rhythm section to find my way home.

    MikeK
  • edited March 24 Posts: 5,271

    Mike, this is a cool realization. The only time that I can remember comping for a very, very good soloist is Koran Agan. I don't remember anything that made me aware about what you said. Over here, in jams, it's the usual semi-pro hobbyist players and in our band I'm lead and Bill is on rhythm. Maybe he can say whether it grooves or it sucks when I solo. I'm aware that sometimes, if nerves creep in, I'll push the tempo on melody playing. At Django in June I might find myself in a jam with very good players but it's usually several guitars so you don't get a sense of synergy between just the two players.

    Anyway, it's really neat to play rhythm accompanying such a player. Must be a joy.

    MikeK
    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • Russell LetsonRussell Letson Prodigy
    Posts: 383

    Speeding up (and less often slowing down) are less trouble than what I'd call "uncertain" time, which shows up most often at transitional points in a form (does the A start with pickup notes?) or where there are rests, but also when a singer/leader is having trouble with the lyric--again often a matter of ignoring rests--and strongly syncopated lyrics are particularly tough to get right ("Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard," "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da"), and singers will hesitate just enough to throw the pulse off.

    BucoMikeK
  • Posts: 5,271

    Don't want to derail a thread, but slowing down is a bigger problem at Django in June jams than the other way around.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • billyshakesbillyshakes NoVA✭✭✭ Park Avance - Dupont Nomade - Dupont DM-50E
    Posts: 1,549

    Maybe he can say whether it grooves or it sucks when I solo.

    Like I would ever say it sucks? 😂 You'll know it's fire when I audibly shout out. Like last night during the first set. 🔥

    BucoBillDaCostaWilliams
  • pdgpdg ✭✭
    Posts: 518

    Best thing, in my experience, is to hold steady and let the soloist rely on that and "float" above it all. If you listen to, e.g, Bireli's soloing, you'll hear him at times lag behind the beat or otherwise play fast and loose with the underlying beat. You shouldn't accomodate to that, since he's working off of the reliably steady rhythm.

    Jangle_JamieBucoMikeK
  • Posts: 5,271

    You can be like "that was good, but..."

    @pdg you hear from the soloists a lot about how they rely on the rhythm section to help them sound good. That's why it was interesting to me to hear what Mike noticed, that it also happens the other way around.

    MikeK
    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • edited March 25 Posts: 23

    This is how I see it. When you solo over a metronome on 2 and 4, you can make the metronome swing and actually sound good. Then you can stop playing for a moment and still hear the metronome swing. If someone where to walk by you at this moment, they would just hear a click, but you would be hearing a swinging metronome. This proves that the feeling and sense of swing is internal. When someone who has a great sense of swing plays with you and your rhythm improves, it is because their internal sense of swing is felt by you, which makes you swing better. Also, if you can make a metronome sound good, then you can make a rhythm player sound good and that rythym player will then have the personal experience of sounding better to their own ears, which feels like magic.

    -R

    BillDaCostaWilliamsadrianbillyshakesBucowimLango-DjangoMikeK
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