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Django in a can
TomThumbs
NebraskaNew
Ok, I admit I bought a cheap Enorez D-hole, but my question is this: What is it that causes cheap guitars to have that "tin can" sound. I'm sure you've all heard it.....it's sort of like the guitar is not capable of projecting it's full sound potential.....kind of stays inside the body. What, if anything, can improve this? Interested in what the main components are, that contribute to this condition.
Since I don't have much invested in this guitar, I'm open to shaving braces, enlarging the sound hole or whatever, if it would help. I'm ready to operate. :-)
Thanks,
Tom
Since I don't have much invested in this guitar, I'm open to shaving braces, enlarging the sound hole or whatever, if it would help. I'm ready to operate. :-)
Thanks,
Tom
Why do they call it a rest stroke......I get tired every time I try playing like that.
Comments
Potential problem:
The tops are cheap, sides and back are inferior laminates, maybe weaker linings too. All of these issues = guitar not stiff = doesn't vibrate as a unit but vibrates easily therefore can be loud, but disjointed with weird partials.
Solution: Stronger braces to compensate for the lesser top wood, but never completely fix. If the top is to thick already (to preclude warranty issues or just to make them durable enough for a mass market), then stronger braces will probably not fix anything anyway.
If you compare the guitar top to a drum skin, a tight skin resolves into a single note more than a loose one. A stiff body better supports the vibrating air mass in the drum-guitar.
I took a D-500 and increased the neck angle so I could install a 24mm bridge. This created considerably more pressure down on the top (braces and top wood) thereby making it stiffer through stress.
Result: Fewer partials, clearer tone, and the top is now convex!
I have a standard 500 as well so I've got a good comparison.
It was a little louder before the surgery too.
The top is solid cedar, so I'm thinking about sanding it down as I had to move the bridge due to really poor intonation. It was off by a mile.
I have hollowed out the bridge somewhat, but that made little difference.
Thanks for your input.
Tom
If you can get your hand in the sound hole it is possible to take material out of the braces which in cheaper guitars tend to be bigger than necessary.
Also make sure that the bridge fit to the top is precise as much sound can be lost by the lack of good contact.
Tap test the back and front to see what it's response is both strung and unstrung. Then either get a good book on the subject or try to figure out on your own whether the changes you want would be achieved by sanding the top, the back, or the braces or the various combinations of them. Keep in mind that if you have a veneer top or back you shouldn't sand that. If the braces are parallel sided much can be achieved by changing the shape to an ellipse. which will be as strong/stiff without the mass. There are probably online resources to find out some of this info.
Adding more tension into a guitar by changing the neck angle is usually counterproductive. There is an optimal range for string break angle that going beyond results in less response.
Generally the tools and the time to do this unless one has the experience and tools already will take more than if you went out and cut lawns or whatever to pay for a luthier to do the work.
Most GJ guitars ship with pretty rubbish strings - it makes you wonder why anyone woudl buy one in a shop after hearing them and also too low an action.
Finally, never mind hitting Stochelo - I found that really hitting the strings as though your life depends on it will help. A couple of Polish Gypsys who sometimes play with us seem to be able to get at least half as much more volume out of any of the guitars they play. So technique plays a part as well. ANd dont forget that if might open up a bit with some vigorous playing.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you try
Alan
Thanks,
Tom
Several years ago I spent a few hours in a the high end section of one of Montreal's best guitar/music shops. Ran into another guitar player there who was a pretty fine picker and we spent the time jamming on all the guitars there. Over 40 different instruments from a several top end mfrs. the cheapest near $2,000 the most expensive north of $4,000 as memory serves. The fit and finish of all the guitars was excellent. HOWEVER ... both of us agreed that only two (or maybe 3) were good value musically. Memory (which ain't quite what it used to be
PS if the sound hole is big enough to get a hand in AFAIK the effect of increasing the size is to lower the sympathetic frequency response. Here is some discussion from another forum
Jay:
If I recall correctly .... the area of the the hole is important relative to the volume of the body. One can fine tune an instruments characteristics by getting the area of the holes in the desired proportion to the volume of the body. Erik Waynesmith and a few others on this site would know the math on this.
Erik
This is correct. The bass response of most resos is primarily determined by a Helmholtz resonator formed by the volume of air enclosed inside its body coupled to a pair of 'air pistons' formed by air in [and near] the soundhole openings. By adjusting the effective size [mass] of these pistons relative to the instrument's internal body size it's possible to tune the body's primary bass resonance frequency.
Jay:
I don't know if the shape of the hole has any real effect on the sound.
Erik
With identical surface areas, a narrow elongated shape (such as an f-hole), or several smaller circular shapes (i.e. ported Wolfe) should be slightly more efficient at producing bass frequencies in comparison to a single round soundhole opening.
__________________
If you use the Enorez as a test bed for your own ideas you'll get experience that has its own value but I'd be floored if you got it to sound even like the gj guitar you deserve. My attempts to make purses out of ears have all failed in the sound department. Maybe yours'll be different. I don't think you can do anything that will affect a poor sounding guitar unless its made from good stuff to begin with.
I wanted to share my experience with the 500s because I at least could verify it myself to a pretty good degree. My "experience" trying to improve cheaper guitars, leads me to believe that quality tops really matter and there's no fixing a poor one, if that's what you have.
Raising the bridge on the D-500 did improve things sound wise, but as I pointed out is likely ruinous to the existing top without getting under the hood again and trying to "gain experience through doing".
I spent 18 years practicing and even making money with a solid plywood Fender dreadnaught. I thought it was great (I just didn't know) but 18 years of practice has payed off a lot. Just play it and practice on it as if its an original Selmer and you'll have nothing to regret. Even when you get that original Selmer you'll still see greener grass and wonder what to do.
Don't hurt Stochelo what ever you do!
Do it legal: Become a bank, apply for a bailout, and buy everything Micheal's got.
May original intent was to try and hear from those more knowledgeable than I, what it is specifically that causes a cheap guitar to have that cheap sound. And what I've gleaned so far, is that: (1) a solid top does *not* guarantee a good sound, (2) braces on cheap production guitars are generally overbuilt,
(3) a good bridge and a good fitting bridge are essential, which most production guitars lack, (4) neck angle can come into play within certain bounds, (5) the right (proper) strings are necessary, (6) sound hole size does count, and (7) there's probably not a lot that can be done for a poorly constructed production guitar's sound.
The biggest revelation for me was that a solid top probably only makes a cheap guitar sound better than a cheaper plywood topped guitar.
So, it appears that I can sand tops and shave braces and enlarge sound holes 'till I'm blue in the face and all I'll end up with most likely is a blue face. Lesson learned. Blue's really not a good color for me. :-)
Thanks All,
Tom