Alternate Picking Chops - What Happens After

ChetArrista

Hey all of you that have been where I hope to go...Here's a question...If you don’t mind…

What happens to the years of alternate picking skills if you turn and devote all your attention to Gypsy picking? I can't tell yet...but after 20 or 30 hours of Gypsy picking practice I sometimes think when I go back to alternate picking I am actually faster than I ever was...then other times I feel like I lost my alternate picking chops all together. Confusing.

Do you all go back and forth between alternate picking and Gypsy picking depending on the style of music/song/phrase/passage you are playing? And would your decision to do so depend on how long you used alternate picking for? For me it's been decades (of alternate picking).

I got the lucky chance to play with the great Frank Vignola and Vinny Raniolo in December and Frank was telling us he never thinks about how he picks and doesn't intentionally use a rest stroke or down stroke; and how he plays can vary from night to night...and then he played Flight of the Bumble Bee and his right hand looked like it literally was not moving at all. I soiled myself just a little bit but no one seemed to notice.

But seriously...is it a case of "once you go Gypsy you never go back" and it’s “All Gypsy, All the time”...or are there “Bi-Pickers” out there?

Thoughts...experiences? Thanks!

ChetArrista

Jazzaferri

There are some hybrid players for sure. When I decided to make the changeover a year and a half ago I was lucky in a way as I had way more years of classic style (25) than flatpicj (10) so my changeover took me about a year at 2-3 hours a day.

I spent a month or so playing everything I knew with only downstrokes. Started slow and worked it up several hours a day That seemed to really help me although I think I still lean a little bit toward a hybrid style

I don't regret leaving alternate behind at all. When I play at high speeds I am pretty sure I alternate more than some of the gypsy players but it works.

ChetArrista

Thanks...I am surprized that 48 people read this and only one person had any experience. I would have thought this to be a very common concern for people new to Gypsy style but that have been playing a long time. I guess time will tell!

dmin7th

ChetArrista wrote:

I am surprized that 48 people read this and only one person had any experience.

I suspect that a lot of people browse this forum that are new to it all as well (as I am), and wonder the same thing.

I used to be a big time alternate picker playing electric pretty exclusively over the years, but since I started to learn rest stroke picking about a year ago I haven't played electric or even tried to pick like I used to.

Mundo

After years of alternate, sweep and hybrid picking I decided to learn gypsy picking when I fell in love with this music. I remember early on after a John Jorgenson seminar, I was asked him a lot of questions about a solo I transcribed from him. Also if he gypsy picked this or that because I could only do it via alternate picking. He did show me a few examples and he did gyspy pick it all- But he quickly reminded me that we've all spent a musical lifetime honing our picking techniques and experiences, and that we shouldn't throw it all out the door. So instead of leaving all the picking techniques behind I embrace them and keep them as "accessories" to my gypsy picking. (which I think is the coolest sounding and a very healthy for your arm/wrist way of playing.)

As a professional guitarist I've always combined every picking technique, as fits the song or solo and I now even incorporate gypsy picking in the mix! It gives me a bigger toolbox to work with and after years I'm able to stay fluid with different picking styles. If one picking technique slips a little it only takes a little bit of upkeep to get it back to speed. I think you'll be able to get your alternate picking back to speed in no time when you put your mind to it!

When I play gypsy jazz with my band I use gypsy picking but every once in a while another picking technique might slip in, and that's ok, because in that given moment I'm trying to play music from an honest place. Plus seeing Bireli mix it up, also gives us all permission to break away from gypsy picking every once in a while!- Hah!

Now recording seems to be a different story... I've found for my tastes (when listening back to myself) I have to play strictly gypsy picking to get that gypsy sound.

Bottom line it's a learning process, there's no wrong choices, and it's all fun!- Mundo

Jon

Hi,

I learnt gypsy picking hand in hand with the Django/Tchavolo vocabulary. I made a conscious decision to not use or reference any of my alternate picking/modern jazz lines when playing gypsy jazz. I wanted to get as authentic a sound as I could, and started from scratch.

This has meant that when I play now, in whichever style, it's as if the two styles come from different parts of my brain - the rest stroke entails a certain vocabulary and mindset, as does alternate picking. There's no real crossover for me. When I play jazz gigs, I pretty strictly alternate pick, and when I do gypsy gigs, I very strictly rest stroke pick. I do enough playing in both styles in a week to keep them relatively serviceable, but of course you can lose fluency with a skill if you don't use it.

I imagine if you were going for a more modern approach to the gypsy stuff there might be some call to mix things up, but generally I don't see any reason to alternate pick if you're playing gypsy swing - sounds inauthentic and a bit weak to my ears, and doesn't project at all well - or to rest stroke pick when playing modern/straight ahead jazz - sounds ham fisted and overly harsh to me on a 175, and doesn't suit the more legato articulation required in that music...my opinion only, and contradicted by many excellent guitarists, to be sure.

jon

Jazzaferri

IMO acoustic guitar and electric guitar are quite different instruments that share some common attributes :shock:

I play electric fingerstyle as I am not good at damping/muting with wrist anymore.

ChetArrista

Really great to see and read so many responses from so many accomplished, skilled and gererous players. Thank you all for sharing.

I am trying to make the tune Bistro Fada my very first Gypsy song and I would have to say it feels a bit like trying to run before you can walk. But after many hours I think I am finally getting it. I am staying true to the picking technic. This means I am learning not only one of the most challenging lead lines I have ever played but I am learning an entirely new technic at the same time. But It's working.

I can't wait to find a teacher. I have never been shown how to do a La Pompe, or anyting in this style. I am getting everything by watching YouTube videos.

anthon_74

On songs to start with - Minor swing and dark eyes, and St louis blues are good first songs. If you want something more complicated, try 'Sweet Georgia Brown'.
'Honeysuckle rose' is a good first song too. Fun but not too complicated. 'All of me' too.

The secret to pompe I've found is to keep a slack and relaxed wrist. As soon as you start pulling your wrist towards your guitar, you're going off track.

Cheers !

Lango-Django

Personally, I try to stick to gypsy picking, but I imagine if somebody were to watch me carefully when I'm improvising they'd quickly see that I fall off the wagon pretty regularly... not that I'm proud of it! :oops:

Just like I enjoy speakng French, but I realize that I'm always going to speak it with an accent, I realize that I'm always going to play GJ 'with an accent'... and what's the point of beating yourself up over something you really can't change? For me, the important thing in both cases is to actually SAY something, not sit around worrying about my crappy accent!

One of my memories of Django in June in 2008, when I first started the process of retraining my right hand, was watching a great young French guitarist named Adrian Moignard perform on stage.

Adrian defied both gravity and all known laws of gypsy picking by reverse sweep-picking--- he could drag the pick UP against his top three strings... I'm still trying to figure out WTF he was doing!

As I've worked on some of my favourite Django sweep-picking licks, like the fast triplets in "Rose Room" I've found that some of them work better for me if I start with an upstroke... who knows why? Probably most guys here would start the same passage with a downstroke... who cares?

For me as an amateur player, the important thing is to have fun with this style. I'll never have the technique of Adrian Moignard or his colleagues, much as I wish I could, but for me it's all about trying to use the chops I've got--- as well as still learning whatever technique falls off the tree pretty easily--- but the whole point is for me to do stuff that I like to do, whether it's managing to copy my hero Django note-for-note, or making up my own solo to some jazz standard I love.

Good luck, and have fun!

Will Wilson

Jazzaferri

I would suggest that unless your chord knowledge is excellent picking tunes that you have that have several bars on the same chord and no multi chord bars. Complexity will take away from your concentration on rhythm.