Welcome!

Lango-Django

Hello, lurkers!

We'd like to encourage you to join our co-op group as we attempt to support each in trying to get the most out of Daniel Givone's book, "La Guitare Manouche Methode", which is available at djangobooks.com

http://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com/met ... ouche.html

I recently purchased the book, and posted the following review:

Value Rating: 4: Good, could be great

1) Daniel Givone’s “La Guitare Manouche Methode” is entirely in French--- not a word of English, which may be a problem for some…

2) It mentions RH technique only in passing, so it’s not a good beginner’s manual.

3) But it’s packed with an incredible amount of cool ideas; almost an encylopedia of GJ technique.

4) I’d guess that to learn everything in this book would take several years of study, so the price is definitely reasonable!

5) Givone’s “five positions”: So logical! So obvious! Why hadn’t I ever thought of this?

6) OK, here’s the negative: the accompanying CD is just not very user friendly: the passages are just played too fast for learning; so it’s going to require a major waste of time re-recording every single one of these 70+ cuts with a “slowdown” program. This is annoying when A) all the user wants to do is learn the musical material, and today's sophisticated user is well aware that 21st century technology exists to make this problem needless!

7) But there are some lovely examples here of chord-melody style, something I’ve not seen in any other manual.

8) Likewise, at the end of the book there are cool tabbed solos in various styles: bossa, rhumba, ragtime, samba, and blues.

9) Daniel Givone is a gifted player, but you know what I’d like to see? A gifted teacher like Michael Horowitz reworking this manual and publishing it in English in a more user-friendly format.

10) If that were to ever happen, I’d give it five stars! But as it is, I’m giving it four stars, and I’ll tell you why: I’m hoping that if enough djangobooks.com members were to buy this book and help each other by communally sharing slow-downable recorded files privately, we could, without breaking copyright, make learning Givone’s excellent material a much happier experience.

11) Now THAT would make this book a five-star method!

***************

My online buddy 'Bones' aka Mike has kindly agreed to be co-leader of this group... thanks, Mike!

Here are some parameters I'd like to set out... Mike may want to add to these...

1) Number one is absolute respect for Mr. Givone's copyright: this group is ONLY for those who have already purchased his book. We greatly respect his work and want to ensure that he derives all possible profit from it. Anybody found to be in violation of this principle will be asked to leave the group ASAP.

2) In order to verify that potential members have actually purchased the book, in order to join our group, you'll be asked to answer a skill-testing question like "What are the first words on page X?"

3) Once you pass this simple test, you'll be asked to provide your e-mail address so that we may privately share QuickTime files of Givone's CD exercises.

QuickTime is a free downloadable program for either Mac or Windows. If you don't already have it, you can get it at

http://support.apple.com/downloads/#quicktime

As noted in my review, many of the cuts on his CD are just too fast to be useful for new learners.

To slow down a QuickTime file, use command-K. To loop it to play over and over, use Command-L.

4) I'm a retired French teacher, so I think I'm capable of translating most of the explanatory stuff in the book. (That being said, I'm still trying to figure out the translation for the musical term "tourner en boucle"!) However, it may well happen that we will want to contact Mr. Givone by e-mail to answer questions at some point. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

5) One of the things I most look forward to is an exchange of ideas about the material... "What did you think of Exercise X? Was it useful to you?"--- "I thought it was great!" ---"I thought it sucked!" etc.

While I've found most of the folks here at djangobooks.com to be polite and well-mannered, there has been the occasional disagreement that has gotten negative... so obviously the usual cautions about on-line manners apply!

6) I'm going to arbitrarily choose a date--- let's say September 1, 2012--- as a good time to look back over how useful the group has been over the months, and we can make a group decision about whether to continue or pack it in.

I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think that Givone's method had a lot of merit, but since I'm so new to it, it's too soon to tell if his method will join the many others that reside up on my shelf unopened!

Will Wilson (Currently on holiday in Nerja, Spain)
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Elliot

Lango-Django wrote:

I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think that Givone's method had a lot of merit, but since I'm so new to it, it's too soon to tell if his method will join the many others that reside up on my shelf unopened!

Will Wilson
-Currently on holiday in Nerja, Spain

Oh, Ye Of Little Faith....!

Anyway yes, this is Method, not transcription, and once you realize how the 5 positions are arranged - and memorize- you'll see the value in it, namely that they follow what must be the classic Django formula of approaching scale (or chromatic) notes, up the arp, to more chromatic notes ending in a figure like a hammer-on/off and back down. The descents are more straightforward, and once you get up to speed you can use the descending patterns to blaze like Jimmy if you want to. I especially like the m7th run at the 10th fret ( the II or A form) for this. (Btw, we may want to decide whether to use the CAGED for form names or I - V, my vote is for CAGED)

So what I see as the challenge here that we could all contribute to is in working with the forms that are being played. Givone gives you a good start in his Cadence et Solo section pp38 - 57. The next book, 25 Pieces continues with progressions with his improvised lines in his very breezy, totally classic style but without naming the forms used (he has a way of making his lines easy to follow yet sound inevitable, just like Django, which is why I like his style). I've just barely started on that book but the progressions are very cool and cover much of the standard repetoire, imho. I'll be looking forward to dissecting those as well.

In the meantime, I've had the thought that for the sake of learning facility once along the way we might want to reserve a cache of tunes that are in the key of G, since the 5 forms are laid out and everybody initially will be learning them in the key of G, so we'll have some fresh new things on hand to analyze and compare, which would be fun.

Elliot

Lango-Django

Thanks, Elliott, and by the way, thanks for alerting our fellow djangobooks.com members to the existence of the Givone method several months ago. It was your enthusiasm that originally led me to give it a try... so naturally, it'll be all your fault if I fail at this.



Since you seems to be the most experienced student using this method, I'm going to get the ball rolling here by asking you a few questions that I expect others, if there are any, will soon be asking, and trying to answer for themselves...

I'm currently working on track 21, page 21; a 'linking' exercise which puts together five patterns based upon the five shapes. I'm finding it tough; I can barely manage to play it at half speed.

The pattern is just a bit too long to memorize, and I just can't read tab quickly enough to be able to sight read it much faster than I already play it.

Looking ahead at pages 23, 25, and 27 I see similar exercises, and they look even tougher. I'm guessing it would take me several weeks to master these linking exercises, and I don't find that they really have a lot of musical value.

I'm considering perhaps just devoting myself to the individual 'five shapes' exercises and not worrying about the 'linking'.

I've looked ahead in the book to the "Cadences and solos" and those pages don't seem to really have much relation to the stuff I'm currently slogging through, and I like them because they are much more satisfying to listen to, they don't sound like finger exercises.

What do you think? Did you put in the time to really master these page 21-23-25-27 exercises or not? If so, did you find a lot of benefit when it came to learning the "cadences and solos" stuff that followed?

Thanks,

Will

Jim Kaznosky

First, thanks for inviting me to the group. I purchased the Method as a result Elliot's enthusiasm as well and we exchanged a few messages here about how he used the book. I also received the 25 Pieces book as gift during the holidays and have gotten as far as listening to all of the tunes and trying to learn the waltz (forget the number of the song, but it is in D minor).

I have to say that I haven't really committed to the method in earnest, but I'm sort of hoping that this group will push me into having it become a regular part of my practice. What I have done with the book is use some of the 5 position phrases by chord for learning how to play in an uncomfortable position. I agree with Elliot that we use the CAGED names as well. An example of how I used it to date would be if I am unfamiliar with the "G" position of a minor chord or a dominant chord leading to a minor i, I'd pull out the Givone book, and practice that position and try to go back and forth between a familiar position until I am comfortable with it.

This is an alternate way to learn, I realize, but it has its merits. Basically, I've been trying to solo on all chord shapes in unfamiliar positions with play alongs in a practice session. Using that G position example above, superimposed over something like All of ME, I'd play a G position C mag, G position E7, G position A7, and so forth. I'll try to take some of these runs with me to a gig and consciously insert them. Like I said, one way to learn. This is the same way I was using the Bergara books.

I'd be interested also in learning this material as a group, as well. I don't necessarily agree with keeping everything in one key, but I do want to find the quickest way to absorb this material. So whatever works. My suggestion for learning this as a group would be to either take one position (C,A,G,E,D) for each of the chord qualities and work on it together as a group or to take one chord type and work on all 5 positions at once. Same amount of work, different approach.

Thoughts?

Lango-Django

Ooh, I like the way you think, jkaz.

Your suggestions are a perfect example of the sorts of things I was hoping we could do together as a group... and I like the suggestion of incorporating some of Gonzalo's stuff into our position work, I have both of his books too... in fact I have to say that if I were going to memorize runs in particular positions, some of Gonzalo's are actually more to my taste than some of Givone's... I'm not sure how to incorporate Gonzalo's into our group right now, plus I don't have his books with me here in Spain right now, but anyway, yes, let's think about that!

I also like Elliot's/your suggestion of referring to the five positions by their shapes instead of by Givone's numbering system, much clearer. Why don't we do that starting right now?

so instead of "Form 1" we'll say C major shape, or C minor shape, or C7 shape...

instead of "Form 2" we'll say A major shape, or A minor shape or A7 shape...

etc.

That "Form 1" C minor shape on pages 22 and 23, by the way, is not one that I'd ever used before, so I'm going to have to get used to that... it's not the most obvious arp to play through, is it? I notice Givone's version includes several notes from its own dominant (ie D7) arp, I suppose because playing straight through the straight chord tones is a bit awkward in that position because of the fingering.

Jkaz and Elliott, if you'll send me an e-mail I'll add you to an e-mail list I'm compiling for future distribution of QuickTime tracks... so far I don't have that many to share, but I'm planning to doing a bunch more soon... if you don't really need or want to be getting this kind of tracks then obviously you don't need to e-mail me.

However, in the near future, I was thinking we might have a monthly "chain letter" thing where everybody could make up and share and mail little recorded clips and tabs out to the rest of the group for position X.. but let's wait a week or two longer to see how many members our group ends up attracting... some of the potential members may also need time to purchase the book.

Will
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swing68

(That being said, I'm still trying to figure out the translation for the musical term "tourner en boucle"!)

tourner en boucle => looping. ie, repeat-play the same snippet - it's a feature on quicktime, audacity et al.

Right, off to the shopping cart to get my hands on this thing

Passacaglia

I'm wondering if you gents could guide me. I am concentrating on rhythm playing, as I said previously, and plan on doing it for quite a while, yet. That said, I have been spending some daily practice in lead playing, but very little. Before I had to stop playing a few years back, I did work through Michael's Gypsy Picking and Stephane Wrembel's book. I also met Gonzalo at a summer fest, and got his book - back then, pretty simple affair, don't even recall if it was bound and whether it had a CD. I only touched on this "How I learned" before my injuries brought me to give up the ghost.

Which brings me to now. I'm getting Wrembel's book again, and will be patiently re-working Michael's patterns, as laid out in his book. I expect what I did know, what my hands knew, to come back fairly quickly (my rhythm has surprised me in this way), but to expect slow and steady on new things.

Would you say Givone's text is useful, or more or less useless, for the beginning lead player? Recommend Gonzalo's books, mastering the stuff in Wrembel's and Michael's books first, or dive in to the Givone?

(off topic - but considering getting the doc film Django Legacy from the store...anyone seen it? Recommend?)

Appreciate any thoughts, all.

Paul

Jim Kaznosky

Paul,

It is definitely hard for me to say what might work best for you. Personally, I end up using Givone and Gonzalo's books more than any of the others. I worked with Michael's book to give me a general sense of the picking motion and there are useful exercises there. What I would suggest would be to use Gypsy picking to get the motions under your fingers as a warmup and work with one of either Gonzalo or Givone's books to get some musical stuff under your fingers. I'd pick a tune and work the material from any of the latter sources into a tune and go from there. I've been using a different set of exercises as a warmup, but that's what is working for me now. I'd try to use a minimal amount of sources, master what your using, and apply it to real tunes. There's so much stuff out there and you can have a bit of sensory overload. I'm hoping this group will help me focus on using the Givone book primarily.

I also bought the DC music Gonz lessons and am working with those, but at a much slower pace. I've supplemented these as to what I've talked to him about in Skype lessons. The biggest thing I've been doing to develop my right hand is playing a lot of downstrokes at home for slow material, and really exaggerate the motion. It was something that he mentioned in the DC Music lessons and I've found it to be very helpful.

That's kind of all I have right now. Working on rhythm...that's next. I play rhythm primarily in my weekly gig, but I could use some help and will probably buy the Hono lessons from DC music next.

Good luck
Jim

Passacaglia

Jim, thank you for the thoughts - really helpful.

I was thinking about this, after reading your post. I think a personal mistake I was making my "first" swipe at this, before my injury, was to buy a ton of books, somehow taking comfort in the accumulation of study materials, over the realization that any one of them could likely have taken me considerable time to truly master.

I have actually gotten a couple of Denis's DC school lessons - Gonzalo's, and Hono Winterestein's I. (love these, btw - it's a great resource Denis, thanks). One of the things that really hit home with me from Gonzalo's series, was to not worry about a billion voicings, a billion extended chord notes, etc. - just focus on some minors, majors, dominants, and perhaps some diminished; just focus on phrases, not even whole solos, and work them to death.

Doing this has paid off in my coming back into playing, in terms of rhythm - boring as it gets, even just muting with the left hand and spending lots of time working right hand only; lots of time doing a simple G6-C#9-D9, trying to get closer and closer to the tone, "snap" quality of the rhythm I appreciate, etc.

A very long winded way of saying, thank you again, Jim, as it's helped me to focus in on what counts. I think that for me, plenty to work on between Wrembel's and Michael's book, and because I'm familiar with (and appreciate) Gonzalo's approach to playing and teaching, I'll pick up another copy of his "How I learned" I (lost the one I had, somewhere over the last couple of years), and go from there.

The Givone text sounds wonderful, and it does bite at my craw to get it. But I think it makes perfect sense what you're saying, exhaust a few materials, over an idea of accumulating a ton of stuff. I've tucked the Givone text into the back, for the time being.

Many thanks again, still looking forward to following this thread, and what all of you are doing. Nice to be back.

Paul

Jim Kaznosky

I don't think it is a mistake to look for learning materials that are going to help a person learn that is closely aligned with the way that they are able to process things. I think it is a part of the process as much as committing yourself to a system. A brief aside: one of the better lessons I had was with a local jazz player who knew what I was into and asked me point blank "what is your system for improvising?"
This caused a shift in the way that I thought about learning. I realized that I needed to either create or adapt what I have at my fingertips to be able to tackle the guitar. That meant understanding what has been successful for me in the past and building upon that.

For me, the arpeggio based thinking of GJ makes a lot of sense. You worry about the chord you are playing, the basic qualities of the chords, and eventually add in the chromatics, enclosures, and tension notes. Stephane's book is great at establishing a plan for how to achieve it. He really lays it all out there for you to learn by yourself. The materials by Gonzalo and Givone, in my estimation, follow this system. It has worked in the past and will work if I put in the work. I just have to be dedicated to keeping the daily work going and ignoring the temptation to noodle for a few hours and call it practice.

I think the key is after I'm good at running the changes (which will take years), then I'll have to really learn how to use it musically. That's the big difference. I'm sure the cool stuff that Django does (or insert your favorite player) isn't a result of the thought of "well, now I need to insert Givone's position II in this slot and then I'm gonna do a cool chromatic run into a position IV lick. They all shedded their stuff, got it down, and don't think about it much when they improvise. Gonzalo said the same thing to me...improvising is a struggle every night. My sax player calls this stuff "emergency licks." When you are having a night where you aren't hearing yourself, all of this practice we are just doing now will come into play. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what is giving me faith every night, especially on the nights when I know I am really really bad.

The key for me is that I try to set some achievable goals: play this lick in multiple solos in different keys in a jam session. Play in unfamiliar positions. Play one good solo tonight. Make the guys in the band say "Right" when I pull something off. If I think that I want to be as good as X in a year, I'd be setting myself up for failure. I'm not gifted. I have to work. I think the majority of us are workers and it doesn't come natural.

I don't know. Anyway, it's nice that we're all on the same path and we're hitting the same roadblocks. It must mean that we're heading down the correct path.

Passacaglia

Nice thoughts, Jim. I know for me I've had to jettison a sense of urgency due to my physical condition and my age (50), and...how useless is that, you know? So I practice with joy, pleased with what I'm learning, know body and mind will have to work harder, as you say, than maybe this lad of 30 years ago might have had to. Yep, agreed - nice to know there's a community of people in love with this music, who work hard to make something impassioned and beautiful.