Effects of Laminate back and sides

AmmonB

Hi guys,

I'm getting ready to buy an Altamira GJ guitar and I noticed that the back and sides are laminate rather than solid wood. I'm curious as to whether this changes the sound of the guitar? Does it last awhile? Will it wear off or chip easily? How do you tell what wood is underneath? What woods are best for these guitars? Answers to any of these would be more than usual. I know I ask a load of questions but I wanna be able to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.

Thanks in advance!
AmmonB

Jazzaferri

What is your budget for a GJ guitar

AmmonB

For the Altamira and all the workings (case, setup, pickup,) I've got about a $1600 budget.

BluesBop Harry

The majority of Selmer style guitars have laminated back and sides as per the original design. If you want the real deal laminated is the way to go... Mind you, wood lamination for these guitars is a very involved process using high quality woods. It's not the same as the cheap tri-ply wood used to save costs on inexpensive guitars.

However I've been told that some solid maple models are great and I'm sure other solid wood gypsy guitars might sound amazing as well... But still pretty much all the guitars you hear on the records and the ones the pros play have laminated back and sides

AmmonB

BluesBop Harry,

Do you know much about the Altamira guitars? How do I find out if it's made with cheap tri-ply wood? Michael's site says they're Indian rosewood laminate. Is that good quality?

I really appreciate the information.

BluesBop Harry

It should be alright... I tried a Latcho Drom which is virtually the same as the Altamira and it sounded great...
I meant to say that laminated wood in the Selmer design is not done the same way as the cost saving laminates used in other guitars where the original design used solid woods i.e low end copies of Martin, Gibson, etc.

Indian Rosewood is the most commonly used wood... It's just the outer layer which a lot of people consider almost purely cosmetic affecting the overall sound slightly.
Traditionally I believe the inner layer is mahogany and poplar is used for the middle. This makes for a very light and strong construction and contributes to the typical tone of these guitars.

You might find this article interesting: http://www.lutherie.net/bckgrnd.html

AmmonB

Thank you so much. The article was more than insightful. It did remind me of another question. Is a pliage important with these guitars as far as sound goes? I know they are more common with the actual Slemers but do the Latcho Drom (or Altamira, in my case) guitars have a pliage?

klaatu

No factory built guitar is going to have a real pliage. That was created by bending the top wood over a hot iron. It's now found in guitars by some of the high end builders, such as Shopis, Barault, the Dupont Vieille Reserve, and others.

Another thing you'll want to budget for with the Altamira is a decent set of tuners. Also when you get it, check to see if the bridge is properly fitted to the top. There should be no daylight showing under the feet. If there is, it's a relatively easy fix (see Josh Hegg's post on fitting your bridge at http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1200).

noodlenot

blues bop harry is of course correct regarding the 3 ply. only from my head, and with a bit of a priori stretching on my part - i´m ignorant BTW and don´t own a solid wood gypsy guitar - laminate backs will be:
- stiffer (because of the glue and the cross-ply effect)
- lighter (at least when compared to a heavy, i.e ebony/rosewood back)
- more homogeneous
- less anisotropic (again the cross ply working, with the central ply being crossgrain against the other two) -their properties will be more similar in the transverse and longitudinal directions.

only from a theoretical prespective, the "quality" of the wood (veneers in this case), albeit important, IMHO will not be as fundamental because it is not the sole factor determining the material properties of the back (mass, stiffness, damping, ..) and, anyway, the fundamental mode of vibration of such a back (being stiffer) should be high enough (say, above 300Hz) to not be of much use in guitar design - a luthier please correct me here.
i would also venture to say that some of the "dryness" of these guitars could be attributed to the laminated construction, as it should exhibit a higher damping than, say, a rosewood back. But the effect of the back on the sound of guitars is debatable and quite a strenuous debate it is!

also, it should be noticed that laminate sides are repeatedly "appearing" in the classical guitar market, marketed as a means to improve "projection" and "definition". it has been proved, however, that stiffer sides do increase the vibrating area of the lower bout, so they help in the efficiency of the guitar regarding volume production.

after re-reading your post i realise you didn´t ask any of these and i´ve been mostly waxing lyrical about this. sorry. a laminate back will be less prone to crack and less sensible to humidity changes. the inside ply should be mahogany, which is easy to spot: large cells, interlocked grain, pink to dark red brown in colour, light reflections usually shows a stripy figure. outer ply is normally indian rosewood (slight interlocked grain, chocolate brown with eventual purple tinges and blackish straight stripes, medium to coarse texture) or maybe maple (creamy white with very fine texture).

i would appreciate any comments on the laminate vs. solid wood, though.

cheers and sorry for the digression,
miguel.

klaatu

I think another aspect of laminates versus solids comes into play whenever you amplify the guitars. Solid woods are more prone to cause feedback, which is part of the reason a lot of electric archtops are built with laminated tops. Almost all Selmacs have solid tops (except for a few of the "student" models), but those with laminated back and sides may be a bit more feedback resistant.

Lamination was an innovation in Maccaferri's day, and yes, the higher end guitars with laminated back and sides are very meticulously contructed with thin veneers. I don't know of this is true of the Asian guitars. I seriously doubt that an Altamira laminate is built with the same care as a Dupont or an AJL.

MichaelHorowitz

What I've noticed is that with the Asian made instruments solid back and sides yield superior tone and projection. The solid wood Altamiras almost sound as good as a Dupont. However, highend hand made instruments don't seem to be as sensitive to the differences between solid and laminate back and sides. I attribute this to the superior skill and materials used in making the laminate handmade guitars.

Speaking of which, I'm picking up a fresh load of Altamiras right now, including several solid wood models!