symetrical and altered diminished scales

kungfumonk007

Does anyone here use these scales in GJ improv and if so how? What kind of sounds do you get out of them and do you have any video examples?

bopster

Denis covers these in his video series. He's the man.

kungfumonk007

In which one? I know about dc-musicschool, but I think those are all other people. Can you give me the link?

BluesBop Harry

It's on the "technique and improvisation" DVDs... I think it's vol 3. I'm pretty sure you can download them now http://www.hyperhipmedia.com
Bireli likes outside playing a lot
The new generation of manouche players are using those sounds more and more... Check out Adrien Moignard, Seb Giniaux, Rocky Gresset... Gonzalo Bergara's been getting into that as well.

kungfumonk007

Yeah - I just transcribed a Gonzalo lick where I'm not sure about where some of the notes are coming from. I think maybe it is just E min/dorian with a lot of passing chromatics but I don't really know. Maybe you guys do:

Lick 83 - http://co-musicproducer.com/licks80-84.pdf

and the youtube I pulled it off of is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gf200PyuSk

59 seconds in.

tacosandbeer

A symmetric diminished scale is typically used when a b9 and natural 13 is desired, like in a blues context, like over a I7. I don't use it for gypsy jazz.

I'm not sure what an altered diminished scale is. If it's an alternating whole/half scale (auxiliary diminished), it's typically used over I dim 7 (going to I) and V dim 7 (going to V) chords.

I'm sure there are several ways to analyze what's going on. One can say auxiliary diminished scales are being played over the A7 (V7) and the D (I), superimposing the aux dim sound. In measure 14 the notes are either chord tones or part of A aux dim except for the Bb (which resolve to A), and in measure 15 the notes are either chord tones or part of D aux dim except for the Eb (which resolves to D). Both notes that are neither chord tones nor part of the corresponding aux dim scale can be analyzed as passing tones.

I quit trying to make sense of why something works and using it, based on the sound, if I like it. But that is one way to explain what's happening based on the aux dim scale.

George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept is a fun book regarding aux dim info.

kungfumonk007

That should read altered/diminished - sorry. I am thinking now it is just a few passing chromatics with a couple of enclosures in m. 15, and that he probably isn't thinking any particular scale over the A7 and D. But still maybe I'm missing something, especially over the em. I'll check that Lydian Chromatic thing out - thanks. I am outside of the outside jazz, and while I am not really a fan of outside jazz, meaning I don't want to be inside of outside jazz, I still want to have that option open if it suits the moment and I feel like coming in outside of the rain.

tacosandbeer

The auxiliary diminished sound on Idim7 and Vdim7 is an older and very inside sound. You come across it in older sheet music of jazz standards (in much older fake books). The stuff George Russell writes about is beyond that, definitely not an inside sound.

Jazzaferri

There are only two diminished scales forms Half whole or whole half

Eg for c dim. Half whole goes C Db Eb E etc. whole half goes C D Eb E etc. whole tone followed by half tone and the converse.

Half whole usually used with 7 b9 chords and whole half with diminished chords.

kungfumonk007

Only 2 symetrical diminished scales. Any possibility that someone could give me a solid link of a GJ player using one of the symetrical diminished scales so I could get a better idea of how they are being used? I feel like I need to get the sound in my ears. Or I guess even a non GJ player on an older tune? Thanks for all the input, this forum is the best.

BluesBop Harry

I'm basing this on the transcription you posted as i didn't hear the vid.

That lick is based on A7 it only resolves to D at the end (bar 16). That's how he creates the sense of tension or outside playing.
It's pretty much standard stuff but he does insert a portion of what could be thought as Bb melodic minor A Bb C Db (notated as A A# C C#) which is part of the A7 altered scale (Bb melodic minor=A7altered)... and it's also a part of the Bb diminished scale (Whole-Half) which is the same as A7 (Half-Whole)!! So that is a ambiguous.
So here is my analysis in case anyone cares:
Bar1 is A9 with chromatic passing note( c to c#) then that little altered bit (A) A# C (C#)...

Note:I believe I've heard some people do that before so probably Gonzalo really meant it... but you could think he wanted to repeat the previous part an octave higher and hit the Bb instead of the B natural... Are you sure you heard the right notes?

Bar2 is A mixolydian with chromatic passing notes Bb and F (Very typical of this style)...

Bar3 he does a descending diminished pattern (From previous measure's last note) with ...again, chromatic passing notes. A7b9 can be interpreted with a Bbdiminished... So that's Bb dim with A Ab Eb D as chromatics... He ends the phrase with enclosures to the A and D notes.
As I said before, resolution is not heard until the D note at the end.



I hope that's clear enough... If not I'll be happy to try to explain it again

So the plan is: Think A7 over the II-V and delay resolution by a whole measure.

Over A7 you can use all or part of A Mixolydian, Bb m.m, Bb Diminished scale W-H or Bb diminished arp and throw in some chromatics

Cool lick!!