Can we talk about pages 20 and 22?

Lango-Django

OK, I've spent the past couple of days working on the "five shapes" exercises on pages 20 and 22. These are the major and minor exercises, I haven't yet started on the sevenths.

I'm going to share my feelings so far in the hopes that it will encourage others to do the same.There is no "right" or "wrong" about this, and I certainly welcome differing views! I'm especially interested in Elliot's opinion, because as far as I know, he has the most experience of anyone around here with the Givone method.

1) First of all, I really don't see much value to the "linking" exercises like the ones on pages 21 and 23. While I admire Givone's facility in playing all those exercises in order so quickly, it kind of reminds me of one of those soccer players standing beside the pitch before the game, dribbling the ball all by himself in virtuoso fashion...

Yes, it's totally amazing, but not much use during an actual soccer game! So I've made my own decision not to spend my time on any of those linking exercises, unless some smart person can give me a real good reason to change my mind.

2) I'm still getting the ten shapes under my fingers. I find some of them quite easy and others continue to be tough after many, many repetitions.

I'm especially hung up on the third exercise on page 22. This is not a shape I would have ever dreamed of! Because it still doesn't seem quite logical to me, my fingers easily get confused. The big question in the back of my mind is--- will I ever actually USE this? Or am I wasting my time?

3) Being the kind of undisciplined guy that I am, I've already been skipping around the book trying some different things. Exercises 38 to 55 are a mixed bag; some of them sound just like finger exercises and others are quite charming, especially Givone's major-key pieces in which you can almost feel the Mediterranean sunshine.

I found with only a little bit of practice, I could play exercise 38, a cute little 16 bar piece in C major, it's quite easy.

4) Here's what worries me a bit... after doing a bit of checking, I don't really see where, in exercises 38 to 55, we're going to really use all the stuff I've been working so hard on in exercises 20 and 22...

So I've already started asking myself the big question--- "How much time do I want to spend on these finger exercises--- like pages 20, 22, 24 and 26--- before I move on to exercises 38 to 55?"

Impatient? Or prudent? You tell me!

5) I've gotta say that I was really hoping the book would provide a lot more examples of cool stuff to play in each of the five positions, like the examples on pages 30 and 31.

I'm hoping that we in this group can pool our resources and create a pool of sound clips to that we've made up ourselves to fill this gap...

For instance, since the page 22 examples are all in the key of G minor, I was thinking that we could use "It Don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing", which happens to be in that key, as a vehicle: everybody could chime in with a few of their own variations on the five positions and we could all learn from each other...

So that is my cunning plan--- are you with me on this at least in theory, guys?

Not yet--- I figure I personally am going to need probably about a week's more work on pages 20 and 22 before I try that!

Will

Elliot

Lango-Django wrote:

So I've already started asking myself the big question--- "How much time do I want to spend on these finger exercises--- like pages 20, 22, 24 and 26--- before I move on to exercises 38 to 55?"

Impatient? Or prudent? You tell me!

Impatient - you need to buckle down, start memorizing and Stop Thinking - it's a bad habit!

Lango-Django wrote:

]5) I've gotta say that I was really hoping the book would provide a lot more examples of cool stuff to play in each of the five positions, like the examples on pages 30 and 31.

Page 30 is basically a similar sequence played for each type of scale (correct?), and I agree a few more pages like page 31 would be nice, but I suppose I can hear Givone's voice saying that they are merely fragments from the scales and would encourage you to try some other ones you can come up with. After all, the forms don't change, but which riffs you make out of them do.

Lango-Django wrote:

I'm hoping that we in this group can pool our resources and create a pool of sound clips to that we've made up ourselves to fill this gap...

For instance, since the page 22 examples are all in the key of G minor, I was thinking that we could use "It Don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing", which happens to be in that key, as a vehicle: everybody could chime in with a few of their own variations on the five positions and we could all learn from each other...

Me too. It would be a good way to start analyzing what is going on.( BTW I mentioned to Gonzo when he was here last summer that I was currently concentrating on songs in G and he looked at me very quizzically. :P)

Django tunes, whatever, let's take a look at a bunch. Perhaps we could take some as assignments once we get somewhat familiar with what is going on. Plus it would be great preparation for Givone's 25 Pieces book.

Elliot

Lango-Django

Thanks for the pep talk, Eliott: Aye, aye, sir, I'll follow your advice--- Buckle Down! Stop Thinking! Keep Practising!

And this morning I had one of those "Duh---!!!" revelations which I'll share... :idea:

(Perhaps you're a bit smarter than old Lango-Django and you don't really need it.. but just in case...)

It would've been REALLY, REALLY LOGICAL :? if I had memorized the five major shapes (page 20) at the same time as the five dominant major shapes (page 24)....

...instead of memorizing the major and minor shapes at the same time... :oops:

And, naturally, it would also make sense to memorize the minor shapes (page 22) at the same time as the dominant minor shapes (page 26)...

By the way, if you don't have the book and accompanying CD yet, just wait until you hear those page 26 arps, they are worth the price of the book all by themselves... the very quintessance of exotic orientalism!

When I play those arps, beautiful women are going to stop to throw their underwear at me, just wait!

Will

Jim Kaznosky

I was thinking in an alternative fashion but somewhere along the same lines.

I do see the use of memorizing the runs. There are some good "thoughts" in these runs and they definitely can be modified to sound even hipper. One thing I learned from Gonz was (tastefully) adding chromatics between notes that are a major second (two frets) apart. You can do the same thing with notes that are three frets apart.

I see benefit in learning the runs by position, (ie, learning all the runs in "C position"), practicing them on a few songs to get them down and then moving on. Just an alternate way to think about it.

Guillaume

I think the linking exercises are valuable in showing you how you can move from one position to another in the same chord. The idea is to get out of the rut of always playing one arp position per chord (which is largely what I still do) and moving around the neck more. The other goal (I think) is to show how arps can be connected using strategically placed chromatic notes which would otherwise sound wrong over that chord.

sjl

But What kind of pattern is he using for the scales. I think he is skipping notes from scales but in a planned form?

Lango-Django

You're right, he is using a combination of chord tones, scale tones and even a few non-scale tones.

There doesn't seem to be a specific formula to the choice of notes, because if there were, his version of the five forms would sound more alike, and to me, each one has its own sound.

I'm guessing that he chose the specific patterns that he did because

1) they sound pretty true to the GJ style

2) the fingering isn't too hard for beginners

3) they sound pretty good when you insert them "as is" into tunes, as he does later.

Of course, once you get a little further into the book, you find that he does sometimes vary them a little bit when he inserts them into his exercises and examples.

Will