my experience with this method

spud

hi all,
just thought i would relate my experience with this method. after browsing through a lot of different methods in french and english this is the one that i really tried to "learn".

i have to say it took a long time to really learn all the phrases in major, minor, dominant to major and dominant to minor-like nearly 2 YEARS to get to the level where i could improvise using these phrases, in any key , on any part of the neck. (in fact in the begining i only learn major ,minor, and the dominant to major- i didnt quite understand the utility of dominant to minor)
its takes a lot of work, but after working intensly with these forms and really getting them under your fingers you start to change them a little, find your own little phrases based on these forms and start finding your own vocab.
i then learnt the 2-5-1 phrases for major and minor and becasue i had learnt the other forms so well ,i learnt them quite easily.
i didnt bother with learning the joined phrases excersises or the studies, because i tried to apply the 5 forms directly to improvising over the standards.

i think its is a very good method because you learn how to find your way around the neck, not just with boring scales or arppeggios but with a sort of phrasing.

however it does leave you a bit stuck in working across the neck in "boxes" now i am trying to find a more horizontal approach to my phrasing.

Lango-Django

How wonderful to have an experienced user of the Givone method share his experiences with us. Thank you, spud.

I very much hope that you will join our group and act as a senior advisor to those of us who are new to the method, and especially join in the file-sharing that we are planning... more about that later!

i have to say it took a long time to really learn all the phrases in major, minor, dominant to major and dominant to minor-like nearly 2 YEARS to get to the level where i could improvise using these phrases, in any key , on any part of the neck.

I've been working for the past couple of weeks on getting all twenty forms totally under my fingers, so i haven't really got to the point of using them to improvise. I believe in another forum a fellow Givone student mentioned that he had found it helpful to draw little chord grid diagrams to remind him of the shapes as he improvised... I think I'm going to try that, too!

(in fact in the begining i only learn major ,minor, and the dominant to major- i didnt quite understand the utility of dominant to minor)

I just love the real gypsy flavour of Givone's dominant minor arps, to me they are one of the coolest things about the book.

its takes a lot of work, but after working intensely with these forms and really getting them under your fingers you start to change them a little, find your own little phrases based on these forms and start finding your own vocab.

Yeah, I find them pretty tricky, too--- I think Givone tried to pack so much into each 'form' exercise that it's like trying to drink out of firehose!

One thing I'm planning on is breaking them up into smaller parts and working out stuff using those smaller bits... in fact the plan is for our entire group of Givone students to work out some stuff like and we'll all share little sound recordings of our stuff with the rest of the group.

i then learnt the 2-5-1 phrases for major and minor and becasue i had learnt the other forms so well ,i learnt them quite easily.

Well, hallelujah! That IS good news!

i didnt bother with learning the joined phrases excersises or the studies, because i tried to apply the 5 forms directly to improvising over the standards.

Yeah, i agree about the joined exercises, but I actually enjoy listening to some of the studies enough to want to learn them... I think it will help me remember the phrases better than just playing them in 'five forms'-style exercises.

i think its is a very good method because you learn how to find your way around the neck, not just with boring scales or arppeggios but with a sort of phrasing.

Yeah, I like Givone's phrasing, and I'm hoping it's going to give my playing a more authentic gypsy flavour... especially those lovely minor dominant runs you didn't like!

however it does leave you a bit stuck in working across the neck in "boxes" now i am trying to find a more horizontal approach to my phrasing.

Yes, I agree that that's a legitimate criticism. On the other hand, most of the Django licks I've managed to figure out use those 'box' positions.

Will

Elliot

If one day somebody should come up to me and say "You know, your style is just like Daniel Givone's" I would consider it the highest compliment.

Thanks for the overview spud. The given phrases as you said are markers to start doing one's own, which is what I'm starting to call the ones I don't remember exactly...

Guillaume

I've had the method for almost a year. It's proven to be a gold mine for go-to phrases that sound really true to the style. One thing I would add is that most of the phrases in the 5 positions are 4 bars long, so I find myself using only half, or even a quarter of the phrases in tunes, so effectively each phrases has 3-4 licks in it (talk about bang for your buck!). The cool thing is that each phrase pretty much goes up and comes back down, so each phrase effectively gives you a cool lick to go up and one to go down - again each can each be used by itself.

Guillaume

Jim Kaznosky

Guillaume wrote:

I've had the method for almost a year. It's proven to be a gold mine for go-to phrases that sound really true to the style. One thing I would add is that most of the phrases in the 5 positions are 4 bars long, so I find myself using only half, or even a quarter of the phrases in tunes, so effectively each phrases has 3-4 licks in it (talk about bang for your buck!). The cool thing is that each phrase pretty much goes up and comes back down, so each phrase effectively gives you a cool lick to go up and one to go down - again each can each be used by itself.

Guillaume

You can also reverse the phrases.

Lango-Django

If one day somebody should come up to me and say "You know, your style is just like Daniel Givone's" I would consider it the highest compliment.

Well said, Elliott, and I couldn't agree more.

And thanks to you for bringing Daniel Givone's music and instruction books to our attention.

spud

Sorry i will be very brief in my reply because i dont have so much time:
-i dont think you could consider me a "senoir" player, i have only been playin for less tthan 5 years. I just wanted to share my expereince because as methods go its givones that i really tried to follow and that helped me a lot.

- i hardly ever listened to the cd because all his phrases are rhythmically simple. I dont see the point in trying to play along with him, even at slowed down speeds unless its your first musical experience, otherwise i think its much more useful to play with a metronome or backing tracks or djangolizer where you can work with just a few chords at a time.

-i also tried drawing little diagrams etc to "speed up" my learning but honestly, its your fingers and ears that need to learn, not your eyes, and it takes a long time. Unless you are extremey gifted, its going to take a while and you need to put the time in your fingers and ears and not drawing, reading or writing on forums

Lango-Django

its going to take a while and you need to put the time in your fingers and ears and not drawing, reading or writing on forums

OK, that's certainly a perfectly legitimate way of looking at it, Spud.

But if you ever DO decide to waste your time reading and writing on forums, then please join our group; you are as welcome as the flowers in May!

Of course, the added benefit of joining our group is that you have somebody to blame when you find yourself unable to master all Givone's lessons immediately:

"It was all their fault! If only I hadn't spent so much of my valuable time reading and writing on forums trying to help those losers, I could be playing every single thing in Givone's book by now!"



Will

spud

Lango-Django wrote:

its going to take a while and you need to put the time in your fingers and ears and not drawing, reading or writing on forums

OK, that's certainly a perfectly legitimate way of looking at it, Spud.

But if you ever DO decide to waste your time reading and writing on forums, then please join our group; you are as welcome as the flowers in May!

Of course, the added benefit of joining our group is that you have somebody to blame when you find yourself unable to master all Givone's lessons immediately:

"It was all their fault! If only I hadn't spent so much of my valuable time reading and writing on forums trying to help those losers, I could be playing every single thing in Givone's book by now!"



Will

Ha ha!sorry if i sounded aggresive but i just wanted to emphasise the fact that this method (like many others) takes a lot of time and that is something that is hardly ever emphasised . The book will say "ok learn all of these patterns in every key by heart" as if its something that can be done quickly.

I dont think its a waste of time to write on a forum but it wont help your fingers or ears learn quicker.

spud

how is everyone going?
if you find its going very slowly i think thats very normal.

here's my advice:
-keep working on the 5 forms for major, minor , Dominant to major and dominant to minor .

-also learn by heart givone's 2-5-1 sequences in all the keys

-start applying as much as you can to relatively standard jam session tunes (because lets face it, to play with others is the aim of the game, not to do excersises at home alone):
cant give you
coquette
minor swing
blues minor
les yeux noir
all of me
take your time start slowly, even concentrating to small sections. in these songs you will find lots of standard chord changes that you need to learn asap.



-learn some licks or concepts for the standard progressions that change quicky. givone doesnt give enough ammunition for these changes that are in many songs and are often one bar per chord:
christoph (i dont know the name in english- the progression at the end of cant give you, all of me, it had to be you, djangos tiger etc)
rhythm changes
djangology (same as night and day, all the things you are etc)


its also good to see how a minor sequence works in relation to its relative major. for example in the followings tunes:
dinah/dinette
sweet georgia brown
anniversary song
it had to be you
ive found a new baby
it dont mean a thing
what is this thing called love (here givone's phrases are very easily applied and its a good excersise and the perfect example of the relation minor and relative major progressions)

this last point is ony something that i recently got my head and fingers around.

even though i have spent a lot of time on the givone forms, i often go back and revise the forms because when you play around you get stuck in certains patterns and you forget some details.
but i really believe in applying as much as you can to the actual songs played in jams because its when you are under a bit of pressure and you have to be able to react quickly and calmly that you need to be able to fall back on something.
hope this helps!