tempo/feel phenomena

kungfumonk007

My group is a non-traditional gypsyish group, piano, guitar, bass, drums in rhythm section. We are polystylistic, but when I try to get them to do a gypsy tune, I can't communicate the feel right no matter how hard I try. When I'm soloing I have this incredible urge to constantly speed up, and I feel like there is no solid beat. I practice with a tempo training metronome for about 4 hours a day (a metronome that drops bars and then comes back in) and my tempo is rock solid with that and when I play with GJ play-a-longs like on Stephan Wrembels site.

Do any of you guys have the same problem when playing with people who are more bebop players? What is going on exactly that makes me want to speed up so much. Anyone else play with a piano player, and if so how do you instruct them to provide proper support? It's driving me crazy because I fall apart when I play with them, and I can't replicate the same phenomena in my practice sessions so I don't know how to correct it.

Mark DS

You could try practicing with some of these playalongs http://www.youtube.com/user/Learnjazzstandards and see if you have the same problem. Maybe this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Wwhe9Hx_w type of comping is more what you want your piano player to play.

kungfumonk007

I originally did try to get him to do more of a stride thing - however there is something about the placement of the beat that still wasn't right. American jazz players just seem to have a different placement of the beat. I think stride would be the way to go if we could agree on where the beat is, but I can't quite communicate how it is different than what he is doing. Any analysis on both the difference of quarter and eighth note placement between GJ and bebop or even american swing would be helpful if anyone has any insight.

Thanks for the tip on the other play-a-longs, that might be helpful to understand what they are used to hearing.

Cuimean

This entry on Jonathan Stout's blog may have some pertinent information for you:

http://www.campusfive.com/swingguitarbl ... -feel.html

Jazzaferri

Matthieu Chatelain told me the big difference between GJ and jazz is that in GJ the accents are more 1 & 3 and in jazz 2 & 4

bbwood_98

ok,
Must jump in here.
Mssr. Chatelain is essentially correct, but all of the old school bop cats feel 1 & 3. In playing with them, and talking with them they always (yes, always!) say tap your foot on 1 & 3. , two and four are in your heart, one and three in the ground. the accents are the same really for swing, bop, and gypsy jazz . . . just a little lighter or heavier depending.

In dealing with playing with other players, can you lock into the drummer when he is playing ride? if so, the piano should be no issue- just have him float over the top with chords as he would do in any other jazz setting. Check out ritary's live cd, for good examples of piano playing in gypsy jazz. I play with piano and drums somewhat often, and love doing it- and basically I play the same. if everyone has big ears and lets the groove happen it should work pretty well.
cheers,
b

kungfumonk007

Thanks for all the input - I'm going to forward all this to my group.

I still think something is missing. There is even a difference in feel between classic American Swing and classic European swing, and my group plays well together in the American swing (straighten up and fly right), it is only on the GJ tunes that we diverge.

I wish I could articulate myself better, and I hope I'm not being to particular, so I hope I'm not frusturating anyone. It is like GJ is a smiling, metal spring, always slightly under tension, while Be Bop is someone walking down the street leaning back with his hands in his pocket, and American Hot Swing (sydney bichet) is like being hunched over dancing - I hope my analogies don't sound too stupid

kungfumonk007

Do you know what - I'm just going to settle the question - next time I'm in the studio I'm going to actually do an experiment, and quantify exactly where the beat is being placed, and what the relative dynamics are, in relation to a metronome in various styles - then we can all know for sure.

John418

Can anyone recommend a decent metronome that drops bars? I can't seem to find a physical one for some reason.

John

Lango-Django

John, do you use Band In A Box? I think I've got a 'metronome' file somewhere that's along the lines you are looking for.

John418

Thanks for the reply. I haven't used that. I was looking for a portable electronic metronome that drops bars - not a PC or app based one. Stephane Wrembel told me about one at the last DiJ but I don't know the model. I'd rather not use a virtual metronome.