Saga with a real pliage

spiro

Hey guys,

I have one question for those who know more about building a instrument.

I wonder how would saga gitane dg-255 sound if it had real pliage.

Mentioned guitar looks nice, it sounds okay and its made well but it is flat on the top, and doesnt have that high freqs and that traditional sound that hand made guitars have.

Would it be possible to detach the soundboard and make pliage, as well as to adjust the sides to fit arched soundboard?

Bob Holo

"Danger, Will Robinson!"

:-0

:-)

That's a pretty dangerous proposition. I wouldn't try it... haha...

It's not the pliage that gives that highend. Well... not alone... to be accurate, a pliage is one way to increase strength under the bridge without adding a lot of weight to the soundboard, but it only really makes sense if it's part of the design. In terms of getting highend in a guitar (GJ or any other kind) Strength to weight ratio and downforce and rigidity & controlling the various mechanical impedances between the parts of the stringpath are (mostly) where you tune your guitar's range & power-bands. There is a particular characteristic that a properly done and braced pliage gives, but it would require changes to that guitar's neck angle & rims & probably a couple other things that I'm forgetting. And if you took the top off, to get the pliage right, you'd have to take the braces off, separate the soundboard halves without damaging the rosette, then re-join them, re-cut the braces and re-install them... re-install the rosette, all without damaging anything... then re-bind & re-finish it.

If I were on a desert island and my only means of escaping was to do this... I *might* try it.... haha... then again, maybe I'd start looking around for stuff to build a raft and sail to land, as it would be easier. I suppose a person could completely re-top an entry level Gitane, but there's no point to it because the rest of the guitar still has all the significant weight & rigidity issues of an entry level guitar.

The 255 is actually a cool guitar, but it is pretty mid-heavy in general. If you want more sparkle, you might be better off getting a Gitane Dorado model or an Alta-MIra or a Dupont Nomade. None of those guitars has a pliage, but all of them have nice highends for affordable guitars, and they have reasonably different tones so you can sort of choose the type of bright you're looking for even if it isn't that spot-on Selmer-607 "Ping" ... Pliages are neat, but you don't need a pliage to get good highend and pliages really only work their tonal mojo if they're properly employed anyway... and most aren't... so most are sort of moot even if they're cool looking. The tonal characteristic the pliage lends is sort of a "taut drumhead" kind of characteristic... it's more of a texture thing. You can build Selmer style guitars with tons of topend - or very little... very forward and simple or very textured and boxy... very solid or very ethereal... It just depends on how you employ the elements. Here's a good example. A very late Selmer (solid / forward / bright), a very early Selmer (boxy / textured / mellow), and a Selmer style guitar I made to try to capture the forward brightness of the late Selmer and a portion of the texture and growl of the early Selmer. Three very different guitars, but you can hear the same tonal texture across three different design choices. But anyway, that's the characteristic a pliage gives... that sort of "bow-rosin & banjo" texture... and if you go 4-brace it leans in the more textured & pithy direction... less forward... more of a warm full if slightly indirect sound. (though you can build a 4-brace as bright as you want by adjusting things) The pliage has a sound... kind of like listening to a Jacques Favino & you can tell it's a Favino even if you can't tell whether it's a Grande or Petit... short or long scale...etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7OFjSp6oRk

Even played fingerstyle you can still hear that texture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopcW2_6rqk

spiro

Bob, thanks for the reply, I see that wouldnt be practical...

Till now I believed that the pliage is the key for lots of highend.

I have Altamira at the moment, and it is a decent guitar. Traditional tone, and lot of high end.

My band mate has a hand made guitar with huge pliage, and back/sides made of blur venner(is it a type of mahagony?).

Ill try to explain some things with common terminology since I dont know much about sound frequencies or guitar building.

I noticed that his guitar is louder than mine, especialy when played at higher notes/strings, but somehow it is closed. I cannot explain it, but I compared them, and my Altamira is somehow more opened(now, i dont say i like it). Altamira definitely has more bass registry. When played the sound of his guitar doesnt spread around but goes directional through the hole(away from the player)- and on my Altamira, it seems like the sound floats all around me.

His guitar sound has much more charm, and somehow is husky/coarsed(i dont know if its the right word)- probably what you meant by tonal modjo.

I wanted to share with the guitar sounds that I prefer, 3 of them, and all are different.

The first one is Favino guitar played by Tchavolo... Such a punchy-nasal tone, perfect for Tchavolos style. Its hard to define it, because of the record quality, but i like what i hear. Perfect sound.

http://youtu.be/RS_Wr4_m0Ps

The next one is probably a Dell Arte favino copy played by Debarre. The highs on this guitar are so thick and defined. Also it seems like you can get that nasal tone also on the A string, what is on most guitars possible only on 3rd and 4th string:

http://youtu.be/j2bxRnoD2pg

The last one but not the least is the guitar played by Fapy Lafertin on legendary Reverie video. This sound so much reminds of dark selmer sound (maybe it is a selmer?). Its much darker than the first two, and the bass is phenomenal. Is this as what you meant early selmer sound - mellow, textured?

http://youtu.be/YPdTWBAvupA


So, i owned Saga DG-255, and i cant say it was better, it definitely didnt have good projection, and was bass heavy. But it was darker than Altamira, and more reminded of Django sound.Altamira has more nasal tone, but less beautiful lower mids colour, if its possible to say that way. So i meant to make dg 255 perfect by giving it a pliage, but i know it is not enough to make it a great guitar, nor possible in theory. Even if it would be possible, the guitar would lose other good gitane caracteristics (loudness etc.)

Jeroen Willems

Hello everybody,

You were talking about a Saga with a real pliage, well its possible .
I replaced the top of my 200 bucks chinees 'Wildwood Selmer' copy with a top that has a pliage .
All I can tell you : "WOW! ". It really sounds Selmerish . I don't know if its because of the pliage , or the thinner soundboard ( 1 mm) , or the European spruce or the braces (off an old matras),
or the shellac finish.

I also have a Dupont Nomade , which is a really good instrument ,but soundwise the conversionguitar is far more superior. I haven´t played the Nomade for 2 years because of that.
BTW I also made a Selmer style Uke and a Miniselmer.

Greetings Jeroen

spiro

Jeroen, can you post video or audio of the guitar...

Where did you get the extra top?

Jeroen Willems

Hello Spiro

I will post a video later.
About the top , I bought 2 matchbooked pieces of spruce at a guitar repair shop.
Shaved them down to roughly 1 mm , did some maths to determine where to bend the top.
Made a 0,25 mm ( 1/100 inch) cut , to allow the wood to be bend.
Then I bended the 2 halves using a 75 watts soldering iron and plenty of water. This seems hard to do but it wasn't because the top is only 1 mm thick. After that I glued them together.

To remove the original top I simply made holes in it and piece by piece it got off.

The hardest bit was to make a shim which was placed under the fretboard to get the right neck angle .
I glued the top to the body and fretboard . Gave it a French polish and a Dupont bridge.
Et voila c'est ca;-)

Greetings Jeroen

spiro

Wow thats great, i would like to hear it!

Jeroen Willems

Hi everybody ,

Here are two photos of the top. I am a bit clumsy which resulted in a "Vintage Look" , like dents, scratches, little cracks , and semi weare-spots.

I'm trying to upload a video, so please be patient.

Greetings Jeroen

Jeroen Willems

Hi everybody,

Here's a video of my guitar .I must say the recording is not very good: http://youtu.be/LADikwwlR0s

Greetings , Jeroen

spiro

Jeroen,

It sounds very Djangoesque...

Also - nice playing.

Thanks for the video.

Jeff Moore

I like experiments! Whether you have the background of Mario Maccaferri or nothing at all, the chance to imagine, or have a idea, and bring it to life is what makes the world turn.
It's sounds like your idea and your ability to pull it off worked.
Congrats