Progress report time?

Lango-Django

O oracular one, please speak freely...?

Jazzaferri

Well IMO all this pattern stuff is interesting but to me scales are the equivalent to the words we use when we speak. I have a hard time understanding how one could play well without being able to play the scales or mode of same.

I don't have the book so am probably putting my nose in where it shouldn't be and if so please tell me.

I spent years practicing the scale patterns for guitar. For example there are 3 fingering patterns to play a major scale starting on string 6. I would practice them freely, trying to keep in tempo but not always in the usual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 way that they are presented in books.

I guess as I think this through a bit more I am trying to understand where Givoine fits in my understanding. IMO unless one can play the scales improvisation would be limited to just certain notes and that's ok too. There is no right and wrong to all this IMO.

spud

Jazzaferri wrote:

Well IMO all this pattern stuff is interesting but to me scales are the equivalent to the words we use when we speak. I have a hard time understanding how one could play well without being able to play the scales or mode of same.

I don't have the book so am probably putting my nose in where it shouldn't be and if so please tell me.

I spent years practicing the scale patterns for guitar. For example there are 3 fingering patterns to play a major scale starting on string 6. I would practice them freely, trying to keep in tempo but not always in the usual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 way that they are presented in books.

I guess as I think this through a bit more I am trying to understand where Givoine fits in my understanding. IMO unless one can play the scales improvisation would be limited to just certain notes and that's ok too. There is no right and wrong to all this IMO.

the way i understand it- this music is traditionally a little more arppeggio based than scales or modes. so in the givone patterns the emphasis is on the arpege, for example over a major scale, he puts in the 1,3,5 of course and the 6th and major 7th because thats often how major chords are coloured in this style. and then depending on the placement of the pattern on the fretboard ,there is often the 2nd and and some other chromatic notes that lead towards the chord tones. so, nearly all the notes there if you know what i mean.
its nearly a scale but not quite.

it also depends on the context- for example in the dominant 7th that resolve to minor chords he uses phrases that are built on the dominant 7TH arpeggio going up and the harmonic minor scale going down.

added to this is the rhythmic way the patterns are presented- there are a few triplets thrown in and sometimes you repeat a small sequence of notes.

i like it because you are not doing scales (or licks) and you need to try to really find your own phrases (because his are often too long to use completely.)

Lango-Django

Spud's explanation pretty much nailed it, but I'll just add: each of Givone's 'forms' is a combination of chord tones, scale tones, with a few extra 'color' notes thrown in, too for some extra texture.

I don't quite understand how he arrived at these particular choice of notes (were they handed down from father to son folklorically, or did Givone make them up himself?) but the important thing is that they do sound 'right' for gypsy jazz.

And the weird thing to me is, some of Givone's stuff actually doesn't sound all that great to me when I learn it at a slow tempo, but when you hear him play it at speed, it sounds hip...WTF is that all about?

As Spud says, you can fool around with the forms. And the good thing is, it's usually pretty easy to find whatever extra notes you want inside them.

My problem with scales is whenever I start thinking about them too much, I start playing too diatonically, and it all comes out sounding kind of plain vanilla!

I did find when I learned Django's 1947 version of "Swing 42" that his solo began with a kind of minor pentatonic pattern, which is as far as I know Django's only excursion into minor pent territory...? (I'm sure if that's wrong then others will correct me!)

Also, Django sometimes did deliberately chase up the fingerboard on his high 'e' string using some scalar patterns... but as Spud says, it's mostly about the arps...

Will

Jazzaferri

In my world arpeggios of all the diatonic cords in any given key are just useful subsets of the bag of notes that a scale represents. Which is to say 7 of the 12 notes that are more likely to be inside rather than outside.

I can arpeggiated at will without thinking through any of the scale patterns I have learned.


I think I learn differently than many people so I should not write too much as I could possibly confuse someone. Assuming that is should anyone take what Post seriously

spud

Jazzaferri wrote:

In my world arpeggios of all the diatonic cords in any given key are just useful subsets of the bag of notes that a scale represents. Which is to say 7 of the 12 notes that are more likely to be inside rather than outside.

I can arpeggiated at will without thinking through any of the scale patterns I have learned.


I think I learn differently than many people so I should not write too much as I could possibly confuse someone. Assuming that is should anyone take what Post seriously

To jazzaferri- have you seen my dinette video in this givone section? i'd be interested to know what you think, because in it i try to stay really inside the givone forms.
i know i have lots of things to work on technique wise but id be interested to know what you think of the phrases and choices of notes. dont worry about hurting my feelings. i get my ass kicked all the time

Jazzaferri

Hi Spud

Wow. I am flattered. I listened to your Dinette. Hard to tell on video but you certainly appear to have a pretty fluid and relaxed fret hand.

The phrases and note choice is certainly genre correct however I sense at times you are bumping into the limitation of playing within a form. This became more apparent the further in to your piece I got.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but I sense that there is the soul of an artist in you that is constrained by the box you are in.

Kenny Werner, a highly respected jazz pianist once responded to a question of what he would want in the future musically. Kenny replied, much to the confusion of the interviewer as it made no sense to him for he thought Kenny a fantastic player, "more technique."

He expalined to me that The one thing that can really get in the way of being able to freely express oneself is a lack of technique. Or as Vic Wooten says, never lose the groove to find a note.

I hope one day we will run into one another at a DFest and get to jam.

spud

Jazzaferri wrote:

The phrases and note choice is certainly genre correct however I sense at times you are bumping into the limitation of playing within a form. This became more apparent the further in to your piece I got.

you're right, here i was deliberately constraining myself to the givone forms to give those who are learining them an example of how they can work when you really start to know them and play around with them. i really tried to stay straight in the forms without substitutions etc

on relistening to it, it does seem "correct" but as lango would say a bit "vanilla".

thanks for your thoughts- yeah i defnitly need more technique. and its going to be a while before i can really forget my technique and just make music.