Feel Issue on swing vs jazz part 2

kungfumonk007

I started this discussion on that intangible difference in swing feel between gypsy and american jazz players a while back but had a new observation from a recording I'm doing.

Of course a lot of it is just accents of course, but it felt like there was something else as well besides just the la pompe accents.

I noticed while editing a recording with my group (which is me plus a lot of jazz players) that I consistently was placing beat 3 a little earlier than the rest of the group. Could be just me or could just be I was having a messed up day, but listening really carefully to the effect it had I feel that might be a big thing in the difference between the American swing and the Gypsy swing.

Is there something too that or was I just playing poorly that day?

Jazzaferri

Mathew Chatelain explained it that swing rhythm has its emphasis on beats 1 and 3 and US jazz plus a whole lot of other the emphasis is on 2 and 4.

The pompe gets its drive from that 1/3 thang.

kungfumonk007

- but even when that is there jazzers still have something different (and off-putting) in their feel even when the accents and long-short feel is matched. Could it be the placement of beat 3? They tend to place it a little later maybe?

Jazzaferri

When I play jazz depending on the feel of the piece I might play on the beat or a slight push to the beat to give it some drive or a bit behind to give it a lazy feeling. Sometimes through a measure but sometimes on or off a beat or part of the measure

An example of what I mean by feel is playing a rhythm pattern 4 to a bar one, two THREE with a push four. If repeated that would IMO give a really nice driving lope to a rhythm. Was it something like that? Did your guys have a slightly different take on the feel? Can be pretty subtle at times.

kungfumonk007

Yes - we ALWAYS have a slightly different take on the feel - that is why I keep on bringing this subject up because it is my group and I can't quite get them to follow my feel. They are all A+ players, but from a jazz background. But whenever I play swing with someone who has a contemporary jazz background it is the same thing, and I've heard other GJ players have the same complaint. Even when you get the right 2 4 accent with long-short feel there is still something that doesn't quite sit right.

Is laying back beat three or pushing 4 like you said pretty common or more of "it depends on the tune" type thing?

Jazzaferri

In my experience it depends upon the tune. The good jazz guys I have had the fortune to play with dont have any problems switching feel to swing or whatever.

I'm the only one in my jazz circle who can do the upstroke style of rhythm and the bolero rhythm except for the GJ guys in town

If your timing is bang on I would think they have some weird take on the feel that somehow is ingrained or are still struggling to get away from the 2 4 accents and somehow end up playing a push on the 3 :shock:

Djangoslefthandman

In soloing I've struggled for years to get closer to the gypsy feel and modify my jazz swing for the style.

I've recently discovered what works for me is playing very even 8th notes, accenting the 3rd note of each 4 mote group and playing quarter notes short. After many years accenting the off beat and playing legato this doesn't make much jazz sense but works against a pompe backing. Using this model I can play longer 8th note lines which flow better and arpeggios sound less like technical exercises.

I'd be interested in what people think about this as I've never seen this in any of the literature.