Waltzes

MichaelHorowitz

Here it is:

Teddy Dupont

Michael Horowitz wrote:

Also, I should mention that the version I have is from an old radio show. The narrator says the piece was recorded on Feb.14, 1935. The Fremaux set says 1940 or 41. The narrator also says it's Django and calls the piece Naguine. However, I have no idea who the narrator is and where he got that info.

He actually says it is by the "Quintet of France" and does not appear to mention Django specifically.

Michael Horowitz wrote:

If it was recorded in 1935, it would make it more likely to be Django.

I agree but I do not think is was recorded as early as 1935. The piano accompaniment does not sound like 1935 to me. I think it is much more likely to be from the early 40's as Nevers suggests. I doubt whether any record company would produce such a non-commercial piece in 1935 when recording time was really hard to get and even Django was only just beginning to become known in France and was virtually unheard of elsewhere?

stubla

For what its worth i think it's Baro but possibly Django:-)

I think its worth pointing out that although Django may not have shown much interest in recording valses after 1928 many of those incredible long triplet phrases of Django(unique in 'jazz' vocabulary and one of the hallmarks of his style imo) that he used in his jazz improvisation show a strong influence of Musette ,stemming from the musette 'variation' style.
They lend a distinctly gallic flavour to Djangos solos,particluarly those in the minor key( eg "Blues mineur").
Django did think of himself as a jazzman i agree;but if we are to believe Dregni, Django also told Oscar Aleman--"Jazz is Gypsy".
Also lets not avoid the obvious-- that is, that the musette waltz sounds so completely at home with the 'Django' style.
We also know that it was often difficult for Django to have free choice in what he recorded as regards to songs,often being forced to record 'commercial' stuff like the Lambeth Walk(and turning it into gold of course!)
Even if Django wanted to record waltzes/gypsy repertoire he may not have had the chance.
Happy new year to all of you btw
Stu


PS-btw finally had the chance to jam with the legendary Dennis here at the Quecumbar in London---HE ROCKS......

scot

The musette waltz does sound right at home in the Django style. That's because Django learned a lot from the accordeon players of his youth. The long triplet phrases and the reliance on arpeggios are directly related to the accordeon style, which (I believe) largely developed as it did from the layout of the keyboard. I always thought that Django's style of playing sounded a lot more "gallic" than it did "gypsy" - people focus so much on his being a gypsy they forget that he was French, too.

Back to the "Valse Manouche". I don't know if it ever was a commercially released record at all. As far as I know, all the existing originals are acetates with blank labels. The original story I heard was that it was recorded by the BBC in 1936, and this was backed up in the text that accompanied the transcription in French Guitar magazine a few years ago. But it doesn't make much sense to me.

If it is 1935/36 I don't think that would make it more likely to be Django. Baro's solos with Guerino were recorded in 1933 and his technique was quite strong even then. Baro told Francis Moerman that he and Django used to go to Poulette Castro's caravan together in the early 30s to learn from him. I doubt that Django's technique was a whole lot stronger than Baro's was in the mid- to late 30s. Django was the best guitar player, to be sure, but RH technique was only part of that.

In my mind, if it was recorded in the 30s, that makes it more probably Baro, whose style at the time (Trio Ferret, again, or his solos with Viseur) was marked by a strong but subtle RH and more direct phrasing than Django used. He did not rely on the mighty torrents of notes that so characterize Django's playing in the 30s - his youthful exuberance!

I wonder if the radio announcer was Fred Sharp. Fred sent me my copy of the recording five or six years ago. He'd labelled the tape as "Naguine" and when I asked him why (since there is another tune of that name) he didn't have a good reason. But he did tell me that he had named it that. Sadly, Fred, who was one of the nicest and most generous guys you could ever meet, just passed away in December, age 82. So I can't ask him about it again.

Best
Scot

Teddy Dupont

scot wrote:

I always thought that Django's style of playing sounded a lot more "gallic" than it did "gypsy" - people focus so much on his being a gypsy they forget that he was French, too.

I agree totally. Ultimately, the French association was much more significant than the gypsy. As I have suggested before, I believe that if Django had remained a gypsy but lived in Romania, Poland or even the UK for example, his playing would have exhibited far greater differences than had he been a non-gypsy but still lived around Paris.

The reasons I think it is more likely to be Django if the recording date was 1935/36 are (1) Even Django was still not well known at that time and Baro would have been completely unknown outside of a very small group. All recordings would have required expensive professional equipment to produce and I cannot imagine why any company would spend money on a complete unknown like Baro. This is even more likely if it was actually produced by the BBC. Django was only just beginning to take off in the UK in 1936 and Baro was not known about over here as a solo performer until the 1970’s, (2) the later it was recorded the less likely it would be Django as he moved further and further away from his musette days. If he did record it, then it would have to have been the early 30’s. Since I think it is more likely to be Baro, this reasoning also leads me to believe that it was probably recorded some time after 1936 (late 30’s/early 40’s).

scot wrote:

In my mind, if it was recorded in the 30s, that makes it more probably Baro, whose style at the time (Trio Ferret, again, or his solos with Viseur) was marked by a strong but subtle RH and more direct phrasing than Django used. He did not rely on the mighty torrents of notes that so characterize Django's playing in the 30s - his youthful exuberance!

I certainly agree with the latter point. Although some of the phrases on the recording are pure Django, he never played single strings solos in this incredibly restrained manner particularly in the 30’s.

scot wrote:

I wonder if the radio announcer was Fred Sharp.

I never actually spoke to Fred (just correspondence) but the accent sounds French or French Canadian to me and surely Fred would not have said something like the “Quintet of France”. – He was another really nice guy like John Bajo who was only too willing to share his knowledge and collection.

Regarding the question of whether Django composed or was interested in waltzes. - After the first few years of the HCQ, I think Django had pretty much carte blanche on what he recorded although record companies would occasionally impose some tunes. He certainly recorded many non-commercial pieces; much of what is in “Unaccompanied Django” for example. I have no doubt that if he had wanted to record a waltz, regardless of who composed it, he would have been able to. I am sure he never recorded a waltz because he did not want to, not because he was not allowed to. You may all think this very odd but I became interested (obsessed!!!) with Django in 1955 but I did not associate his music with waltzes until the 1970’s and that was via Ian Cruickshank who picked up the association from Matelo Ferret. The waltzes in gypsy jazz are all about the Ferrets, not Django.

a

that's not django on choti..
i bet a it's a ferret..

MichaelHorowitz

I asked Stochelo about this last weekend and he was 100% percent sure it's Django on the recording. He said the tone, phrasing, etc was classic Django and that there's no way a Ferret could have played that.

Just thought I'd pass that on...


'm

Ando

The playing has a suppleness and delicacy that I don't associate with Baro's playing. Baro usually sounds feral, not "Parisian."

To me it sounds most like Matelo, who has always had a terrific rubato feel, excellent strong-beat trills ... When he was younger, he was probably superb at nailing things technically if he learned them verbatim.

Could he have done this in his early twenties?

a

after further listening, i take it back, and agree with stochelo...

this can't be ferre (especially if ferre sounds anything like their later recordings or boulou and elios). ferres, are amazing, but don't have as loose a wrist..

this playing is very clear, and the dynamics are a lot like django. but it sounds like a tame django (maybe a green django?). and the guitar does not sound like a selmer.

scot

According to Elios Ferre when he was asked about this (in a recent magazine article):

"There is no ambiguity here. These (tunes) are "valses a Django", composed when he was 16 or 17 years old. There is even one, "Gagoug", which he sometimes played as a fox-trot, and there is a recording of Django playing it in that manner. So there is no need to add legend to legend - these are certainly Django's waltzes. And it's my father who made them known."

I always believed that these compositions (and the recording in question) were the work of the Ferrets. But this settles it for me - I had it wrong.