notes vs shapes on the fingerboard

FrankieDetergent · October 2012

i'm curious how do you see (or aim to see) the fingerboard? when i first picked up the guitar the first thing i learned was the A minor pentatonic box. and then the A minor scale. the thing with the shapes is that u can play them very fast but the price is that u have no idea what notes u play

that's where the speed comes from.
then i tried to stay away from those boxes or shapes, and decided that the only shapes worth learning are the intervals, with which u can go up and down all over the neck.
seems like i started thinking of the fingerboard by it's intervals.
the problem with this is that a particular fret position in my mind becomes a minor third, or a major seventh, etc, but it disappears it's quality of being a G or a B for example (it's note name).
today i was using major sixth over E minor chord and realized that that's a C#.
this is confusing because if u you think by note names, ur thinking "i need a c# right now" or "i need to end this phrase on a c#", "where could i find one". to me that's very different from thinking "i need to land on the maj6, where could i find one".
well the actual problem was that i added a couple of notes to the arpeggios, which made the arpeggio look weird.. hard to recognize where i'm at. but i don't want to learn it.. because i would be learning yet another shape.. and when it's time to solo.. i would give in and just play the entire or a too big part of the arpeggio instead of playing real music.
how do you guys look at this?
('cause i never had real guitar lessons)

Lango-Django · October 2012

cool topic!

Well, from my studies of Django's playing, it seems to me that he used a combination of "box" arps, so-called "horizontal" arps, and movement up and down one or two strings.. As well as his explosive octaves, hot chord hits, chord tremeloes, syncopated DDU patterns, and all the other dozens of little tricks he could think of to lend some extra tension and excitement.

sometimes he even liked to play in "first position", (frets one to three) like on "Sheik of Araby", unbelievably enough in the key of Bb--- most of us normal human guitarists wouldn't even dream of doing such a thing, but he did, and he made it sound totally amazing.

I guess the long and the short of it was that Django devised a technique that allowed him to play pretty much anything that popped into his head spontaneously, though yes he did have some tried and true licks that he liked to use.

So how much did he think about things like "Okay, here comes an X chord, so I'd better play a Y note" ...?

My instincts tell me that when he was at the very top of his improvisatory game, he was doing everything without that kind of conscious thought, probably relying on finding notes that belonged to patterns that he knew so intimately that he could choose them as naturally as you and I might choose just the right words to say when chatting with a friend.

but at other times, for example when he was playing the first-chorus melody of some tune that he'd just learned for a recording gig, and maybe in a weird key to boot, my instincts tell me that he probably had to sweat it a bit just like you or I would to make sure he hit the exact note... ("Okay, now it's coming up to that passage where I have to hit that climactic Bb note!") Sort of like if you or I had to give a speech at the town hall, we'd spend a bit of time preparing it to make sure we said exactly the right words to suit the occasion.

but the one thing I am sure of is that anything he played when making recordings was based upon techniques he had diligently mastered to one degree or another. You know the old saying, "Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration." I think that was as true for Django as for anybody else, even if he did make it all sound so bloody easy... Can you imagine relearning to play after losing the use of two fingers? he must've worked like a sonofabitch to do that!

so I guess the long and the short of it is that whatever you practice is going to come out in your playing somehow, so all you can do is practice the stuff that sounds good to you and try to make it sound good, no matter what it is.

Like me, I'm not really interested in playing in first position, but I like to use octaves and so I do practise improvising using them. I'll never probably play em just the way I practised, but that's not the point, is it?

And my opinion is, don't worry about playing out of boxes, it's nothing to be ashamed of... Just make em sound good, like Django did!

will

PS And if you want to learn some more cool stuff based upon "box" patterns, buy one or more of Daniel Givone's books and you'll learn some really cool stuff to add to the stuff you already know, I promise.

FrankieDetergent · October 2012

Lango-Django wrote:

so I guess the long and the short of it is that whatever you practice is going to come out in your playing somehow, so all you can do is practice the stuff that sounds good to you and try to make it sound good, no matter what it is.

this should be a famous quote somewhere.

hmm i keep thinking and both perspectives should work in tandem (note names and intervals). the intervals make playing inside the chord very easy, but when a different chord comes, to see the big picture (how the chord relates to different chords that are coming), note names are required.

i'll pay a closer attention the those new intervals introduced in the arpeggio what note names they are, and try to stay away from shapes in general (except intervals, related to the root).

here is a diagram i did of a minor arpeggio (with added min7 in this case) which is just a shape.. and although it's a simple and recognizable one, if i were to eliminate the fifth or even the root too (which make a very recognizable shape) and add lets say a major sixth and a minor seventh to it.. the shape would be very confusing. so i guess i'll slow down and not fall in the trap of seeing just a shape, a pattern, cause that happens when i play something unfamiliar at high speed.

dooh..

FrankieDetergent · October 2012

FrankieDetergent wrote:

but when a different chord comes, to see the big picture (how the chord relates to different chords that are coming), note names are required.

still.. i'm not so sure of this.. i think u could get away with seeing only intervals of each chord laid out on the fingerboard without knowing it's note names. but it's important to see the intervals and not long shapes with no inside meaning. i'm thinking out loud here. i'm trying to make things as simple as i can.
'cause note names themselves have no meaning unless i see the piano in my mind or the music staff.. which is awkward ..looking at a guitar and imagining a piano

:?

Lango-Django · October 2012

today i was using major sixth over E minor chord and realized that that's a C#.
this is confusing because if u you think by note names, ur thinking "i need a c# right now" or "i need to end this phrase on a c#", "where could i find one". to me that's very different from thinking "i need to land on the maj6, where could i find one".

Just thinking about this again, Frankie, so let me add a few more thoughts...

1) That C# note is a real good one for an Em chord, in that case it actually makes it an E minor six chord, always a good sound for gypsy jazz.

2) The good thing about the guitar fretboard (and sadly there are some not-so-good things about it, like trying to sight-read music on it!) is that once you know how to find that Em6 sound from whatever Em box you happened to be in at the time, then quite logically and easily, you are going to be able to do the exact same thing for Fm6, F#m6, Gm6, Abm6, Am6, etc etc

3) And what's even more amazing is that after you've practised doing that enough times, your fingers will just magically remember how to find those sounds--- all you have do is think "i need to land on the minor 6, where could i find one" and your fingers will just do it, all by themselves!

4) So from that point of view, especially when playing at tempo, you really don't want to waste precious milliseconds thinking about the NAME of the note you're looking for--- it's the SOUND you're looking for, and your fingers can find that for you without conscious thought.

5) In fact, let's be brutally honest here--- this is jazz, and our goal should be to play from the unconscious or subconscious, because that's what makes it exciting. When I'm really on top of my game, it's as if my fingers are somehow playing all by themselves, and I'm sitting back and just listening... weird and amazing!

(In his book "Effortless Mastery", jazz educator and author Kenny Werner talks about this feeling in religious terms. Being an atheist myself, I wouldn't describe it that way. But to me it's the second greatest feeling in the world... no prize for guessing what "the" greatest feeling is!)

5) Since I don't play a lot of so-called "horizontal" arps, except for the odd diminished chord, I can't really speak to that, but I have a hunch that it's basically the same deal--- just find the sound, don't worry about the name. Listeners are only going to hear the sound, not the name!

6) On an instrument like the piano or the sax, where there's only one way to play any given note, likely none of the stuff I'm saying here would apply. So for that reason, Frankie, I think you'd probably want to forget about comparing piano to jazz guitar...

Just my opinion; I could be totally wrong... in fact, according to my wife, I generally am!

Good luck!

Will

FrankieDetergent · October 2012

yes, u have a point, actually at some point when i stopped thinking of the notes, i just realized that the a minor arpeggio has the same shape as a d minor

,just glided a 4th to the right, and e minor of course.
i'll see what will happen, thanks for the honesty.

Jazzaferri · October 2012

Both piano and guitar can voice the same chords differently. Piano is much more flexible in this but which guitar vpicings one uses when chording can take a bass line or a melody shape and work that through the chord progression.

For single note phrases, guitar like sax often has several fingerings that will work. Usually the one that flows best for your fingers works best. Keep in mind what works best for one person a,y not be the same as what is easiest for another. When one has mastered the instrument one doesnt think about this any more.

As I say to people, sometimes I play the guitar, sometimes it plays me.

FrankieDetergent · October 2012

the guitar is complicated, it's 6 pianos each one slided on top of each other, chaotically if we consider the interval between 2 and 3 string, and with the black keys removed, so u completely have no idea what notes u play

it's hard to compose melodies on it. there's a forth that sort of comes right next to the root, thats a huge jump, where on the piano u would only have the second. and on the next string you're almost at the octave. that's absurd

. the guitar it's good for playing live, on stage when you want to impress, when after easily playing 3-4 notes you're already on the third octave

Jazzaferri · October 2012

I have no difficulty in playing melodies at all. Sometimes have to take them slow if they are complicated. Years of classic style scale exercises in all positions. It is only a matter of diligent focussed practice, which I find hard to keep focussed some days.

Most important IMO is to relax and enjoy the journey, as it is never over.

Steveareno · October 2012

Yeah, used to play box patterns alot, coming up thru blues and country. When I started getting into this acoustic swing stuff I bought a Django book and got a whole lot more linear (up and down the neck). Django helped open up the whole neck for me, which has been a huge help in my playing. Now, I'm not stuck in a box, but I can still cimb back inside when the time's right.
Swang on,