Swoosh, flick.

Passacaglia

Comparative videos, right hand discussion:

This is "belfastgypsy"'s excellent youtube, demonstrating LaPompe, using Them There Eyes.

This is Denis's, equally excellent demonstration, using Sheik of Araby.

Nous'che backstage with Stochelo, Dinette.

Nous'che, Coquette. 1:39 on, Hemert's upcoming course.

For the sake of discussion, I'll (very grossly) divide what I hear into wrist "flicking" and wrist "swooshing."

"Flicking":

Denis's Sheik, and Nous'che's Dinette - a rapid, subtle upstroke, but still, a more clearly defined upstroke, equal to but distinguished from the downstroke portion of beats 1, 3, so one hears the upstroke quite clearly.

"Swooshing"

I'm trying to hone in on the "swooshing" effect - I know he changes his attack to meet accompaniment needs, but obviously Nous'che does this, as in his Coquette demo above. I believe Belfast Gypsy is also doing it in this video (though it's so close, sometimes I think my ears are deceiving me, and he's merely doing a downstroke only on beats 1, 3).

Michael H., in his rhythm book, seems to me to also be using the "swoosh" in examples like Example 7.2 and 8.

I'm reasonably comfortable with where I'm heading, using the "flick." The "swoosh" makes me always feel like a complete noob, once again. Experienced rhythm people - have you struggled with this? Thoughts?

anthon_74

A couple thoughts -

To me, it sounds like you're asking about to up stroke or NOT to upstroke. in the early Django Recordings, he had a fairly pronounced "flick" (as you call it)... nowadays however, players are often all but eliminating the upstroke all together. Call it a trend. At Django in june last year, Sebastion Boyer strongly discouraged the use of the upstroke, saying that this is how it's done now. this was what the "Belfast Gypsy" guy was doing in the video you put out.

I personally, always did a "flick" for the first 5 or 6 years of playing the style. Like you, I didn't feel like I had the "feel" when I took out the up stroke. In the last year or so, I have done a lot more playing without the up stroke at all. One thing to keep in mind when you do it without an upstroke, is that the 2 and 4 strums are almost completely NON voiced. In other words, you BARELY squeeze the chord with your left hand at all, and ALMOST only get a chuck sound. When you have an upstroke, you squeeze the chord on the 2 and 4 beats just a slight bit longer.

The way I got the hang of it was by watching videos of Adrien Holovaty on caravan guitars, giving a demo of how this guitar or that guitar sounds. He always plays about 45 seconds of rhythm and then 45 seconds of lead, and often uses the NO up stroke rhythm style, unaccompanied, which really lets you hear how it is done by someone who, the afore-mentioned Sebastion Boyer deemed rhythmically "perfect" at django in june.

Passacaglia

anthon_74 wrote:

A couple thoughts -

To me, it sounds like you're asking about to up stroke or NOT to upstroke. in the early Django Recordings, he had a fairly pronounced "flick" (as you call it)... nowadays however, players are often all but eliminating the upstroke all together. Call it a trend. At Django in june last year, Sebastion Boyer strongly discouraged the use of the upstroke, saying that this is how it's done now. this was what the "Belfast Gypsy" guy was doing in the video you put out.

I personally, always did a "flick" for the first 5 or 6 years of playing the style. Like you, I didn't feel like I had the "feel" when I took out the up stroke. In the last year or so, I have done a lot more playing without the up stroke at all. One thing to keep in mind when you do it without an upstroke, is that the 2 and 4 strums are almost completely NON voiced. In other words, you BARELY squeeze the chord with your left hand at all, and ALMOST only get a chuck sound. When you have an upstroke, you squeeze the chord on the 2 and 4 beats just a slight bit longer.

The way I got the hang of it was by watching videos of Adrien Holovaty on caravan guitars, giving a demo of how this guitar or that guitar sounds. He always plays about 45 seconds of rhythm and then 45 seconds of lead, and often uses the NO up stroke rhythm style, unaccompanied, which really lets you hear how it is done by someone who, the afore-mentioned Sebastion Boyer deemed rhythmically "perfect" at django in june.

Hey Anthony -

Thanks. Actually, I'm not talking about whether to upstroke or not, but rather, two different ways, by my perception, anyway, the upstroke is come upon. I know from DIJ that Sebastian isn't a fan of any upstroke, but I do appreciate its use, and am working on its subleties.

Nous'che, as far as I can tell, utilizes it almost all (perhaps all?) the time - even if at times, it sounds like he's not. This "sounds like he's not" is likely the "swooshing" thing I'm trying to get at, and I believe belfast gypsy is doing it similarly - at least to my eyes and ears, I hear a similarity of approach between the Coquette and belfast gypsy's video. Both are using a very smooth "wave" technique, though lighting-rapid, to get a smooth upstroke/downstroke "swoosh."

I do appreciate the modern sound - which seems to be heading towards a downstroke only, entirely percussive 2, 4 - but it's not me; Fapy, Nous'che, Denis, several others - the feel and sound of the upstroke, with a voiced 2,4, is just something I dig. What I'm hoping to do is get inside this "swooshing" technique, described by Michael H. in his book, here, etc.

Passacaglia

Sorry, for some reason, can't edit the above post. I might be wrong on belfastgypsy's pompe - looking at it again, it does seem like a straight downstroke only. Sometimes, it's really difficult for me to tell.

Passacaglia

(Not sure why I don't get an edit radio button, sorry guys).

Another comparison....not a tempo thing.

Nous'che at North Sea, Douce Ambiance ("Flick") and the above Coquette, "swoosh."

Jazzaferri

What I am hearing is a subtle very quick but quiet upstroke covering only the top 2-3 strings. Not much emphasis at all but definitely there.

Hardest to hear for me withNousche as he is soooooo smooth and relaxed.

I ammthinking I may sign up for a short stint of his rhythm course when he gets going just to access the slowed down bits.

Jazzaferri

On the older North Sea one the upstroke is reallynevident.

The upstroke isnt played on the upbeat in any of these though. Its like a grace note but the timing comes out of the previous beat maybe a 32nd note before the downbeat.

Hope this helps a bit Paul. Still not entirely sure about your swooshes and flicks though

Jazzaferri

No edit for me either

My upstrokes have evolved into just a flick at the top two or 3 strings as I am not practicing/playing enough rhythm these days to be really quiet and smooth with a quick upstroke covering all of them.

Passacaglia

Hi Jay -
My use of "flick" and "swoosh", in a word, is the difference I hear between an upstroke style where the upstroke is discernibly a distinct, discrete stroke one hears, joining a discrete downstroke for a beat 1 or 3. "Swoosh," a constant wave, where it's hard sometimes to even hear whether there's an upstroke at all. I hear both, as an example, in different listenings of Nous'che, and I see the difference in the example vids, above. Michael H. talks to some of this difference, in his rhythm book.

Jazzaferri

Now I get it. Well my upstroke is fading from flick to swoosh :shock: whgich I am not sure is a good thing but it is reality at the moment. What I need is a few days of rhythm playing and all will be well again :roll:

rimm

Wow! I have never shared a forum with nouche before! I am Belfast gypsy by the by.
With regards my pompe, its deffo a more modern approach..I learned from Fintan gilligan, who in turn learned and played with mathieu chatalin.
If you are playing with another guitarist and you both lock in on this technique it has the effect of moving air in a much more pleasing way if that makes sense...it's just that it sound so much cleaner and it really grabs the attention. When i first went to France this is what i heard and it hit me right in the chest. The django era rhythm is great, dave kelbie being the master of this, but I dig the 1/3 vibe when playing. I recommend listening to adrien and set metronome to stun. Playing along with 'French guitar' by romane is also a cracker..don't even hold down a chord, muffle the strings and just accentuate the first and third-two hours a day for a month and it will stick for ever.