Unwanted harmonics when playing rhytm

SintilodianMinor

Hello guitarists! I'm new on the board. I'm also new with this style of playing. Been playing mostly swing and bebop before and because of my affection to swinging stuff, how could one resist gypsy jazz?!

I've been struggling with 2 issues when trying to learn the rhythm. Played on my 335, I didn't seem to get the right amount of "chunkiness" or richness on beats 2 and 4 so i bought a Gitane DG-255, and also purchased the Gypsy picking and gypsy rhytm books by Michael Horowitz. So i got two questions basically. One is, when I mute the strings on 2 and 4, i get these unwanted harmonics no matter how hard or soft i dampen with the fretting hand. I've experimented with for a few weeks now and it drives me crazy. It's better in some positions like Am6 in fifth position but i get em mostly everywhere. Listening to the rhythm of Gonzalo Bergara, I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Anyone recognize this...?

Secondly, in Horowitz rhytm book, he adresses some basic Gypsy chords. I know my inversions fairly well and have been playing for a while but some of these chords are nearly impossible for me to get clean and good-sounding. I'm talking about the ones where you barr 2 notes with the second or third finger, and also incorporate the thumb. It seems as if one would need doublejointed fingers. So the question is, is it unwise to start practising gypsy rhythm playing using only three-note shapes? Until you get the hang of the rhythm i mean and after a while try to work with the "basic" ones?

MichaelHorowitz

SintilodianMinor wrote:

i got two questions basically. One is, when I mute the strings on 2 and 4, i get these unwanted harmonics no matter how hard or soft i dampen with the fretting hand. I've experimented with for a few weeks now and it drives me crazy. It's better in some positions like Am6 in fifth position but i get em mostly everywhere.

This is a common problem and it's usually caused by very wet, ringy sounding guitars like the Gitane DG-255. You might try silk and steel strings, a new tailpiece, and a high quality replacement bridge which all should help reduce overtone ringing. Sometimes there are things you can do with your left hand to mute unsused strings, but generally this problem is mostly the result of an inferior guitar.

Secondly, in Horowitz rhytm book, he adresses some basic Gypsy chords. I know my inversions fairly well and have been playing for a while but some of these chords are nearly impossible for me to get clean and good-sounding. I'm talking about the ones where you barr 2 notes with the second or third finger, and also incorporate the thumb. It seems as if one would need doublejointed fingers. So the question is, is it unwise to start practising gypsy rhythm playing using only three-note shapes? Until you get the hang of the rhythm i mean and after a while try to work with the "basic" ones?

The chords aren't nearly as important as the rhythm. You probably will eventually get the hang of the voicings that utilize the thumb and one finger double stops. For now, I would just use simple voicings and focus on the rhythm. Basic bar chords with few or no tensions are fine. In the end, the right hand is far more important and no one will fault you for playing simpler chords. In fact, most people need to do more of that!

Michael

Passacaglia

Michael Horowitz wrote:

I would just use simple voicings and focus on the rhythm. Basic bar chords with few or no tensions are fine. In the end, the right hand is far more important and no one will fault you for playing simpler chords. In fact, most people need to do more of that!

One of the biggest suprises for me, is how often Hono and Nous'che (the two guys I've studied more than most others) use straight majors or minors. I'm afraid I took your notion of the "gypsy sound" and the 6th too literally, Michael. Once I got a vocabulary that included extensions, I would never play a straight anything - always adding in a 6 or 6/9. I've come to appreciate how great a straight chord can sound, esp. in tandem with extension chords. Them There Eyes, for instance. That straight Em, Fm, G7 or G75+, a juicy Bm - all these straight minors sound fat, powerful and wonderful, to me.

Jazzaferri

Triadic chords free up a lot of space for a lead player to move around in. The more complex the chord the more the two players have to know what they are both doing.

Some songs really need the 6 or 6/9 or major or dominant 7 sound as the extensions support the melody line. I often just use a plain 6 or 7 rather than adding the 9 in backing improv.in a I chord situation. If ther is a bass player one can get away with even less.

Jazzaferri

My first musical mentor told me many times that a good player spends the first part of his career seeing how many notes he can put into a tune and the latter part seeing how many he can take out.

SintilodianMinor

Michael Horowitz wrote:

This is a common problem and it's usually caused by very wet, ringy sounding guitars like the Gitane DG-255. You might try silk and steel strings, a new tailpiece, and a high quality replacement bridge which all should help reduce overtone ringing. Sometimes there are things you can do with your left hand to mute unsused strings, but generally this problem is mostly the result of an inferior guitar.

Thanks for the quick reply Michael. It's not easy to get information on these matters in Sweden as the gypsy jazz-scene here is somewhat non-existing. I've done some googling on the topic with modyfing my guitar but with little result. I see this one dupont bridge here on djangobooks, and some several tailpieces. Do you know if the dupont bridge works well with my gitane dg-255 and what about the tailpieces? I have no idea which one works best towards getting the wetness and ringing out of my guitar. Also, i bought these sets of Argentines savarez as they seem very popular for the style. Perhaps they work sort of like they silk and steel strings?(on this ringing guitar-matter). I sure hope you ship to sweden Sorry for question-bombing.

Some nice advice too regarding chord extensions. Thanks all for the insights and for taking time!

/Joakim

Passacaglia

Joakim, I will pass along some of the best advice I was ever given:

Dennis Chang wrote:

i haven't read the entire thread so i might be missing a few things; but if you're concerned about your guitar affecting the sound of your rhythm playing.. DON'T!

a good guitar is great to have, of course; but 80% of the sound comes from the hands... the rest is just icing on the cake.... you put icing on a piece of dog shit, it 's still dog shit hahahaha

i have tons of gypsy friends and have been to their homes on and off over the last 10 yrs... before aria and gitane made those affordable guitars, VERY few of them owned actual selmer style guitars, they all played noname steel string or nylon string guitars.... paulus schafer and his cousin sendelo were playing on piece of crap arhctop guitars until they bought gitanes just a few years ago...

check out these kids playing on anything but selmer guitars, the dude on the right is even playing with his fingers and listen to his pompe... it's all in the fingers!!!

If you'll go to that post, you'll see some young gypsy kids pounding the hell out of this music on what is likely no-name, cheap guitars. You may note, too, that is my thread - "rhythm, wetness, Gitane DG-300."

I learned, and I've tried to keep this straight - even though I am soon to be the very happy owner of a Rodrigo Shopis guitar - that unless you just get the stuff down - leger et sec - light and dry, keeping time, etc., no guitar can fix the road that has to be smoothed by just putting in the hours. I, too, got a Dupont bridge from Michael, early on, and I'm glad I did, my Gitane sounds better with the Dupont.

But I'd say, it's hours put in, and not anything else, that has changed my rhythm playing. I've a long way to go, rest of my life. Wishing you pleasure, from your work.

Paul

Jazzaferri

Oh and it took me a few hunderd hours of practicing on legere et sec,light and dry, to get that right...and I have been playing guitar for over 40 years.

SintilodianMinor

That's some golden advice right there passacaglia. I'll take it with me no doubt. Today at school I suddenly felt an urge to practise something I really haven't felt during the last six months. I seem to have missed that earlier thread of yours. Shame the tube vid no longer existed though. I will have to imagine how it must've sounded! Gonna change the bridge and replace the strings though since it seems like a good idea but I guess magic has got to do with who's playing and not who pays the dollars.

Thanks once more and keep on swinging all.

Bones

I tried to post this earlier but I guess it didn't go thru.

Also, make sure that you are not creating harmonics when damping using the fingers of your left hand.

There are harmonics all over the fingerboard especially at the 5th, 7th and 12th frets and if your damping finger is right over the fret it will create a loud harmonic that will ring out.

To fix this, just shift your damping finger over a bit until the harmonic doesn't ring out. It takes a little practice but once you make the adjustment it is no big deal.

blindjimmy

It's so rare that i can contribute here, i was noticeing this exact issue with my rhythm playing this month . I was getting the harmonics on certain chords , especially 5th fret A7 , and my solution was to move my fretting hand a bit to the left , towards the headstock , and the harmonics dissapeared. Easy solution but changeing where i grip the chord between the frets , on the fly , takes a bit of attention. Hope this helps .