Thank you Michael for the Zwinakis

kungfumonk007

I was tentative about getting this guitar because honestly the dry rhythm sound unaccompanied sounded offensive to me (too bright) - but it really is no problem once your in a mix with other musicians, in fact it sounds beautifully - I can lay back and give a nice bouncy straight ahead rhythm sound that is really nice and controlled, and then when I want to really HIT a beat it just barks and pops out just like you want it too. The single note lines come out beautifully, expressive, resonant, and responsive. . . . and hear is what it sounds like:

(the living room recording doesn't come close to doing it justice, plus I wish I had a backing track about 10 bpm slower, this one kinda leaves me behind, practice practice practice) Thanks again Michael - really appreciate your advice on this guitar, and of course I wouldn't be doing gypsy jazz (at least not correctly) if it were not for your books.

MichaelHorowitz

Hi Aaron,

Glad to hear you're enjoying the Zwinakis! It's a wonderful guitar, thanks for the vid!

Michael

kungfumonk007

Would this guitar benefit as well from shims under the bridge like my cheaper Gitane did? Any other set-up issues anyone would suggest.

On all my nicer guitars, and even my Gitane after I got a Dupont bridge for it, the "B" string tends to have bad intonation - am I just cursed or is there something about the "B" string that it tends to be a little off. I go to Luthier's, several different well respected ones, and they can't get it all the way on either - do I just need the right luthier?

Jazzaferri

There is no such thing as a perfectly tuned guitar. Like a Piano The only thing one can do is temper it ...probably best to where one spends the most time playing or if one is all over the neck making sure there are no clashing high notes that really stick out.

In my collection of lutherie stuff I have a 23 page analysis of guitar string tuning, complete with equations that are high order math done by a very competent classical guitarist who is also a practicing PhD physicist.

In order to maximize the ability to equal tempered tuning on a guitar one needs to know the string diameter and mass per unit of length, and then adjust each nut and bridge saddle position accordingly.

His suggestion is based on plus or minus .25 mm if I recall correctly

MichaelHorowitz

I believe a guitar with fanned frets will solve the B string intonation issue. Otherwise, you'll have to live with it just like every other guitarist as all conventional guitars have this problem.

kungfumonk007

Thanks guys - and should I shim it? The action is fine where it, and it would be fine higher as well - would there be a tone improvement or would it simple raise the action and not offer anything for tone.

Jon

Every gypsy guitar I've played has this problem. Getting a compensated bridge made can help. I have heard though, from a good luthier, that the problem is also in the lack of consistency in the particular strings used for this style (Argies etc). He has compensated bridges for me that have played dead in tune with one set, and then out with another of the same make/gauge. Go figure! Never had that problem with my Gibson or Fender (both with adjustable bridges), but have had it with all of my Selmer style guitars (Gitane, Dupont, Barault, Favino), where you can't adjust very precisely for a given set of strings. Often it seems like the B string is sharp, but I've found that sometimes the D is a bit flat too, making octaves sound ugly. I think that learning to live with it is in the end the answer. It doesn't seem to be a big enough issue to ruin chords too much (to my ear at least) - just octaves/unisons. Good to hear someone talking about this issue - I would love to hear other people's opinions on dealing with it. Interestingly, was it Barney Kessel who complained that he couldn't get a Selmer to play in tune enough to record with? Django didn't seem to have that problem, but maybe he just dealt with it better.

As for shimming...shim if you're getting buzzing that you don't like, or if the guitar has no volume. Shim with some good wood. Otherwise, if you're basically happy, be happy

Enjoy the guitar - it sounds great!

Jon

Jeff Moore

I make my own bridges and intone em by ear. This gets the only intonation variable you can control (the bridge) at the best compromise while getting the action to your my own place along the way. Its a pain, but if I stick with the same strings I use to intone it, its better than the stock bridge. I made a large stock of lousy bridges along the way so its not for everybody, but I'm glad I've learned it cause even the most outrageous great guitars get a small improvement this way.
Also, even a little discrepancy in the seating of the bridge takes a huge toll in tone and will mask a great guitar as a mediocre one.
That said, there is no perfect intonation or perfect bridge for that'll get it.

You sound great by the way! Are some of those your licks, like your own invention?

Jazzaferri

Michael Horowitz wrote:

I believe a guitar with fanned frets will solve the B string intonation issue. Otherwise, you'll have to live with it just like every other guitarist as all conventional guitars have this problem.

I have a fan fretted guitar from Michael Dunn that still has the same issue but it is the minor change in tension of the strings that causes the problem ....they have to stretch slightly to accommodate the minor change in length and that amount varies depending on where one frets the instrument.

It is more noticeable, the higher the action.

If anyone is really interested, the site where I found the paper on this could likely still be found with some diligent reading..... A warning though, unless one loves math, best to just go to the end where the laymans, plug in the numbers bit is.

kungfumonk007

If you're prepared and know what you're going to play you can of course compensate on the octaves manually, but that is just one more thing to think about that I'd rather not, I have hard enough time just getting my fingers on the frets. Guess I'll just have to learn to do that automatically on octaves between the d-b strings, those are the only ones that seem to be bad, on 3 out of 4 of my acoustic guitars. I wonder if Django wasn't manually bending to intonate. Interesting that it is apparently commonly the "b" string.

Thanks for all the tips and advice as always.

kungfumonk007

I know what you mean jazzaferi - I did a paper during grad school on the origin of the tuning/notes of the 22 shruti in classical Hindu music - that stuff gets weird. I'm still trying to get my head around the pythagorean lima's - also interesting how wind players and string players develop different ears for notes possibly because they play the overtone series while we are largely tuning in 5ths/4ths.

But however you think about it somehow you guys are able to take all that and make great music!

Since you are nerd enough to be interested in this stuff, this was a treasure trove of information:

http://www.22shruti.com/research_topics_list.asp