[Controversial] Why is there not any great US guitarists?

Passacaglia · March 2013

Firstly, absolutely right, noodle. As one who was unable to countenance some of the earlier sentiments in the thread, I feel a bit foolish. Doubly so, since I'm not much for imputing characteristics to any nation-state, if I still wax sentimental from time to time.

start young and stay at it.

-and, crap. I'm screwed. (jk). If Stochelo's "late start" was 10 years old, I'm, er, 4 decades past that.

Best get busy.

noodlenot · March 2013

well, you shouldn´t feel foolish in anyway (you know that). your love, dedication and enthusiasm for this genre is quite obvious and quite contagious, and i´m thankful for its honest overflow. it helps keep this community alive.

you know, i was just venting out. not thinking in anything/anyone in particular. silly me.

Passacaglia · March 2013

noodlenot wrote:

well, you shouldn´t feel foolish in anyway (you know that). your love, dedication and enthusiasm for this genre is quite obvious and quite contagious, and i´m thankful for its honest overflow. it helps keep this community alive.

you know, i was just venting out. not thinking in anything/anyone in particular. silly me.

Well, thanks, Noodle, really nice of you to say. Just a couple of weeks here of a kind of crossroads, realizing nothing really matters but playing itself. And a kind of humility, in no pejorative sense; putting mind and body down to what matters, and that is, simply, play.

anthon_74 · March 2013

My concern with this topic is more that the entire post started off more like an inflammatory - "We're better than you are" type post.
A better way to start the discussion would have perhaps been to say - why isn't gypsy jazz as popular in the US as it is in france/europe/ ? Then we can discuss the topic without the whole "who is better" value judgment standing in the way.

Otherwise, as you saw, most people (myself included) responded with "what about this guy" or "what about that guy"... etc.

And in terms of "starting young" - I have listened to many of the so called greats who "started young", and often times they sound like an endless stream of 32nd notes with the occasional stop note. For that reason alone, I prefer Paul Mehling. speed and pure technique do not a great guitarist make. Referring back to my other post about speed killing the swing, I believe the endless fascination with speed only really appeals to the player, not the average audience, and many of these so called greats all sound the same much of the time (in the video Eddy posted, I heard the same 3 or 4 licks played at breakneck speeds by every guitarist from europe) ...

I think true greatness comes from knowing when speed detracts from musicality, and having the courage to slow down sometimes. For this reason, perhaps starting young isn't always the recipe for truly sounding good. Gonzalo, for example, didn't start young (he came from a blues background, and started GJ quite late).

MaximusVolumus · March 2013

What has not been said yet (regarding the topic of speed) is that playing 16ths and 32nds can be just as musical as playing quarter notes. Yes, many players these days employ lightning-fast runs, but I personally have never heard of one who ONLY uses them. The concept of speed in music can be related to writing. The lengthy, complex, and artsy sentences serve a very important purpose; they make the shorter ones stand out. This technique use of different sentence types/length for dramatic effect is called varying one's syntax, and is employed in nearly ALL skillfully written pieces.

With musical concepts, the same rule applies. The complex blazing runs that one finds in the vocabulary of many of the modern greats are there to provide contrast with the simpler, more melodic lines, thus achieving the same dramatic effect.

hanear21 · March 2013

You're right Maximus nobody has mentioned that yet here, and it is true. However, I think the negative comments about speed are referring to certain players who tend to focus on speed OVER musicality. I agree that speed is a valuable tool in a musician's arsenal. What I think a lot of people find off-putting, though, is when a soloist chooses to go on and on playing an endless stream of 32nd notes. Some might argue that doing so is no more interesting than playing an endless stream of quarter notes. So just like you say, I don't think it's specifically fast playing that is being criticized, but a lack of variety in one's solos.

The complex blazing runs that one finds in the vocabulary of many of the modern greats are there to provide contrast with the simpler, more melodic lines, thus achieving the same dramatic effect.

The problem only arises when there are, in fact, none of these simpler melodic lines being played. Some would argue that even some of the "modern greats" of this genre are guilty of this.

Jazzaferri · March 2013

I get quite uncomfortable with judging others....musically .... words like greatest bestest fastest .....as opposed to saying What one likes or doesn't

It's human nature to go here but it is not for me a positive place :shock:

In this thread there have been some points that I found very thought provoking and some insights I really appreciated. 8)

In all honesty I simply have no measure for comparing art...either it speaks to me or it doesnt. When it doesn't I will ask myself why.. Sometimes I get an answer sometimes not.

In regards to speed, have you ever listened to someone who talked very quickly and didn't pause, didn't change inflection or tone ...just rattled on....and on....and on......I am sure most musicians who are capable of it have done it..at least a few times......if it goes on and on and on though.....watch what happens to the audience.

Sorry bout the spelling/punctuation..... iPad is having fits

Aurelien · March 2013

We use to say in France that the only good be bop players are american (not 100% but almost)

I think it's a cultural fact, when we are used to see for free Angelo, Tchavolo, Bireli, Adrien, etc... For free !!! And with the history Django has with France, there's an energy that you won't find anywhere else to play this music, maybe more in Europe, of course ;-)

But it's the same for american people in straight jazz, but I would also say RNB, Country, and some other styles because it's part of your history.

Now, with the internet everything becomes more international and you have some Denis or Gonzalo who are at the top in this style.

Next will be american players ;-)