"Half gypsy" picking

Charles Meadows

I was curious on what some of you more seasoned pickers think about this.

I have been gradually assimilating the gypsy style over the last 6-8 months. I have become a fairly adept alternate picker through the years, so going gypsy style on some of the real fast stuff is tough to train my hands to do. But for the Django stuff or even more traditional guys like Stochelo it seems to fit well.

I have been listening to a lot of Angelo Debarre's newer stuff, particularly Trio tout a Cordes, which is AWESOME. I have been working through Manege, Swing Chez Toto, and La Manouche - and some of the stuff is not too Django-like and almost lends itself more to alternate picking (especially the B section on la Manouche).

So what are some of your thoughts on going Gypsy "all the way" for that kind of material, versus sneaking in some cheating (namely not down pickng the first note on every string in some of the faster linear passages)? Thanks.

Buco

I often wonder if some of the ultra fast parts I hear played by best of the best, are played in strict gypsy picking style?
From some of the posts I read here that's not always the case, sometimes they use alternate picking.

But also it was proven to me by Alfonso Ponticelli, when I took a class with him, that some parts that I thought are just impossible to play in gypsy style, can be played in such style with ease and a powerful attack and a stupendously flexible wrist.

In general I think that gypsy picking style is better and I try to stick to it.
Why?
Because some of the things I played with alternate picking before I took up gypsy jazz were sometimes a little dirty.
For example, if I played a downstroke note and had to move to the lower string using alternate style I'd play upstroke. A lot of the times on fast lines I would slightly hit some of the strings on the way up.
If I do this with gypsy style, and use a downstroke whenever there is a string change, even if it's a string below it's always a clean note after a clean note.

Jon

You should use the technique appropriate to the sound you're trying to get, and Angelo's sound is - from what I've seen - pretty much 100% gypsy picking. He's just really good at it You'll never get that sound right with alternate picking.

Jon

Jazzaferri

The downstrokes and the sweeps give the style its inimitable accent or inflection if you will

Besides it aint possible to alternate pick with the power which is necessary to get "that sound"

Charles Meadows

Thanks for all the replies.

Best I can tell from videos Angelo is 100% gypsy picking. To me it seems like a no brainer for the more traditional style stuff. It's the newer stuff, more "linear" type stuff, that would seem well suited to the alternate picking.

And its not the double downs or the sweeps that are bothersome, it's the remembering to gypsy-pick a phrase that looks like an ascending scale run from 80s metal! A good example is the B section of Angelo's "La manouche", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDZeVoiVipc, starting at 0:57.

I am still trying to do it Gypsy style, but so many many years of heavy metal and bluegrass flatpicking have made it hard to turn off the "default" to alternate picking!

AmundLauritzen

I hear ya! It took me a long time to get comfortable even playing very slow phrases with gypsy picking. But it pays off to dive in the deep end and do the thorough work. I'm trying to imitate Stochelos right hand as much as possible.

As long as you keep relaxed and don't try to run before you can walk, you'll make progress and you'll find that many phrases are actually easier to play with gypsy picking than with other picking styles. Plus, it just sounds right

dennis

actually Angelo's lines lend themselves really really well to this technique!!! i find it harder to alternate pick them!!

dennis

Jazzaferri wrote:

Besides it aint possible to alternate pick with the power which is necessary to get "that sound"

It is possible to alternate pick with just as much power, I have two friends who come to mind who have mind boggling alternate picking technique and are able to get just as much volume, but it's a question of tone; it's not the same tone at all...

my friend ewan comes to mind; he has the best alternate picking i ve ever seen (and i've seen em all), he plays on super heavy gauge strings with high action and gets tons of volume out of the instrument... i've taught him a number of gypsy waltzes as well and he executes them with ease using alternate picking , but of courswe the tone is way different

Bones

Does Joscho Stephan use some alternate picking or is he strict gypsy picking?

AmundLauritzen

I think Joscho picks much like Bireli and Wawau. Mostly gypsy picking, but they sometimes play backwards sweeps that are impossible with gypsy picking so accomodations are made.

Some players use more downstrokes than others. Stochelo and Jimmy seem to be the most extreme, while others use more upstrokes but still adhere to using downstrokes at every string change.

To my ears, Joschos picking sounds very consistent dynamically. Very aggressive playing. By that I mean that I don't think he uses as many slurs in his playing as someone like Angelo for instance, but I could be wrong.

These are only observations of mine, so I can't guarantee they are correct.

Here are some thoughts on the topic in general: I think every player should decide on the appropriate picking for each phrase. Practice building an extensive vocabulary and spend a lot of time with each lick playing it slowly and revising the picking patterns to achieve the desired sound. Sometimes that can mean exceptions to the "rules". Stochelo for instance, uses many "cheat slurs"(for lack of a better word) where he will add a slur that doesn't subtract from the momentum in the phrase. Sometimes that can just be one hammer on/pull off in just the right place. I think this allows him to execute phrases at blistering speeds. It is critical to place these slurs in the right places so as not to lose momentum.

By now I have learned close to 30 Stochelo solos so I believe I can comment on that somewhat accurately. But what do I know, there are always eureka moments to be had that can make one reconsider everything they know.

My 2 cents.

Charles Meadows

Thanks for the input.

I admit to spending more time on Angelo than Stochelo. But with Stochelo's stuff Gypsy picking seems to be about the only way to do it!

Angelo's more recent stuff is more "linear" - so that it seems more amenable to alternate picking, which for me is more natural still. And hence the tremptation to "cheat". I don't feel like alternate would help me as much with Stochelo!

But I think I am going to go with the consensus and try to gypsy pick it. The sound is definitely different. Thanks again for the great advice.