Soft Picking Style?

Gorquin

Hello Newbie here.

First off I don't want to offend anyone and I firmly believe in the phrase "to each his/her own" so here's my question.

Does anyone know of any posted videos of someone playing a Gypsy Jazz guitar more like a Std Jazz guitar with a soft touch I rather like the rhythms and lead work of the Gypsy Jazz style but I don't care for the aggressive heavy picking sound. I'd prefer a more contemporary sound plugged into an amp and/or PA. Maybe Jim Hall or Pat Methany meets Django.

Anyone?

wim

howard alden has a softer hitter, and he has great ideas and improvisation, but the picking style can sound sloppy to me sometimes. you can see a jazz guitarist frank vignola who plays a lot of gypsy jazz guitar in a style as if it was an electric guitar. in my opinion it sounds totally naff and doesn't suit the style, he's got a rubbish sound and a lot of tasteless licks.. but if you don't like the aggressive picking sound maybe it will be more your thing?

andreas oberg plays with a flatter wrist / alternate picking style a lot, and very well, whilst he's also capable of playing the broken wrist style with aggressive gypsy picking. his playing is more musical, although he still plays a lot of canned ideas. i am quite impressed with his ability to switch back and forth between a modern electric guitar style, and a more "tchavolo" style, with apparent fluency and ease in both. most guys end up heading one way or the other way.

a probably lesser known one but a real favourite of mine is this young guy who goes by the handle "jazzmanouche90" on youtube, check him out. he plays with a soft picking style, but it's still gypsy style and it's still sounding like a gypsy jazz player, just a gentle and subtle hitter rather than a balls to the wall showy player. very musical and elegant playing, you can't really see his face in the videos but i think he's the guy clement reboul in sara french quintette.. don't quote me on that.

AmundLauritzen

wim wrote:

howard alden has a softer hitter, and he has great ideas and improvisation, but the picking style can sound sloppy to me sometimes. you can see a jazz guitarist frank vignola who plays a lot of gypsy jazz guitar in a style as if it was an electric guitar. in my opinion it sounds totally naff and doesn't suit the style, he's got a rubbish sound and a lot of tasteless licks.. but if you don't like the aggressive picking sound maybe it will be more your thing?

This. Some guys for some reason refuse to apply gypsy picking. Here's a great comparison of two extremes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1PGnB3kj4Q

By that I don't mean to knock on Frank. I really enjoy his playing when he is playing anything but gypsy jazz guitars. He has some kind of hybrid guitar that he some times uses for gypsy jazz, it suits his picking style so much better. It sounds right.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: picking over the soundhole makes the GJ guitar sound like a dreadnought. Look where Jimmy picks: just where the soundhole begins. He cuts through and the tone "breaks" and barks in a way that is authentic. Tchavolo is another great example. He has a very sharp tone with lots of bark and bite. I love his style.

These are all my personal thoughts and preferences. Some people may like the soft sound and that's fine. I'm drawn to the qualities of gypsy jazz that distinguishes it from other jazz styles, because I play bebop on the side so why would I want them to be similar?

Objectively, from a perspective that excludes personal preference, one may argue that gypsy picking is conductive to being heard in jam sessions because it helps the tone "break" to get more high frequencies and the volume is much louder.
So I would seriously consider that. If you're going to play amplified most of the time, choose the picking style that produces the sound that YOU want to create. For jam sessions with several rhythm guitars around the campfire however, you'll probably drown if you don't use gypsy picking.

My 2 cents.

flaco

wim wrote:

you can see a jazz guitarist frank vignola who plays a lot of gypsy jazz guitar in a style as if it was an electric guitar. in my opinion it sounds totally naff and doesn't suit the style, he's got a rubbish sound and a lot of tasteless licks.

I don't think Frank is trying to be the most authentic gypsy-style player. He's just trying to be the best musician he can be. Let's see what legendary guitar players would seem to think he's a decent guitar player - Les Paul, Bucky Pizzarelli, Jimmy Rosenberg, Tommy Emmanuel, etc. But I'm sure Frank will be really broken up since you think he plays a lot of tasteless licks. :roll:

Gorquin

Thanks for the input guys. Looking through some of the posts here I watched a few videos by Fapy Lafertin whom I thought had a softer more fluid picking style than some.

I'll check out the other players mentioned. I'm not looking to do a Gypsy Jazz combo (I don't have those chops although I'm going to "borrow" some of those licks.) so I'm not worried about keeping up with other acoustic instruments playing heavy rhythms.

wim

flaco wrote:

I don't think Frank is trying to be the most authentic gypsy-style player. He's just trying to be the best musician he can be. Let's see what legendary guitar players would seem to think he's a decent guitar player - Les Paul, Bucky Pizzarelli, Jimmy Rosenberg, Tommy Emmanuel, etc. But I'm sure Frank will be really broken up since you think he plays a lot of tasteless licks. :roll:

Hmm, didn't mean to offend anyone by dissing frankie V .. hey, Tchavolo is another example of a guy who plays a lot of tasteless licks aswell. But he executes them with such technique and style that they sound really good!

Agree he's not trying to be authentic, he's played a lot with Jimmy Rosenberg and he obviously would have picked up a thing or two from Jimmy already if he wanted that sound, I guess he doesn't want that sound. But he's the best example I could think of a musician at a high level who's regularly playing on a gypsy guitar, with other gypsy players, and has a genuine interest in gypsy jazz music.. but doing his own thing in regards to the sound and the technique.

I do also think he's an excellent guitar player and musician, but I stand by my opinion that on the gypsy stuff he sounds ... uh ... bad. I think Tommy Emmanuel is an excellent musician too, his original stuff is awesome and his technique out of this world, yet listening to the way he comps with stochelo just makes me cringe. It's like they're speaking 2 completely different languages and not really understanding eachother enough to communicate properly?! I digress ..

klaatu

Kruno Spisic gave a demo of alternate picking versus gypsy picking at Django in June 2009, and it was enough to convince me to stop being lazy and learn GP. I don't mean to imply that anyone else is lazy if they prefer to play in a softer style, just stating that I was until then.

flaco

Sorry if I came off as a little defensive. Some of this ties in to the other thread on this site about why there are no great American gypsy jazz players. If you read Frank's bio you'll see his first record ever was a Django record and he spent a lot of time playing along with it. But without exposure to people playing that style in person he was emulating the notes he heard without knowing the technique. Tommy Emmanuel is probably a similar story.

Archtop Eddy

For beautiful softly played music, I suggest Patrick Saussois and Koen Decauter's wonderful CD of Brassen songs entilted Un P'Tit Coin D'Paradis. Also, of course, Fapy Lafertin and Bamboula Ferret's classic recordings on the CD Ou Welto Risella.

For more of an modern electric sound there is Rocky Gresset's CD Mastering Rocky, and Ninine Garcia's My Dream of Love.

Each of these CD's have examples of softly played GJ styles. Much of it has to do with the songs being played of course. In this regard there are many recordings by the Rosenberg Trio that show a gentler, softer and more relaxed approach to playing; as can also be said about the master himself -- Django.

AE

Steveareno

Interesting thread. I too prefer a "softer", warmer tone and more lyrical style. I don't care for the shredding and ultra fast speed that is sometimes associated with GJ style. Don't understand why someone would want their guitar to "bark" or "scream"...two terms that are viewed as desirable by some. I saw Stephen Wremble live and it seemed like he was shredding the whole time, with a very sharp tone. Adrian Holovaty does some nice finger style arrangements, which I really like and is quite different from the stuff you normally here on GJ guitars. Fapy, Rocky Gresset, Stochelo, Jimmy Rosenberg, Adrien Moignard, Tchan Tchou (Mack the Knife), Pearl Django (always seem to have great guitar tones), Gonzalo..and many more exhibit taste and tone that appeals to me, though sometimes even these guys get carried away. I think GJ guitars are naturally strong on the high end and upper mid-range, with clear bass. Maybe it's what Fender fans referred to as "mid-range scoop". Sometimes shredders sound plinkety and sharp with no sustain...which I guess is the "correct" sound for some, but I far prefer the sweeter, warm tone these guitars are capable of with some effort.
Swang on,

anthon_74

The problem with true "soft picking" in the bebop jazz style is it will NOT be heard over the rhythm guitar in an acoustic setting. Pretty much all gypsy jazzers pick anywhere from hard to REAL hard. Some are definitely overly aggressively loud, but most all who sound good are doing gypsy style picking which creates the more volume and good tone.
Otherwise, as I said, in an all acoustic setting, you will be completely drowned out by the rhythm guitar player.
to my ear, the gypsy picking is absolutely necessary to get the good sound out of these guitars. Additionally, I find fully acoustic sounds way better then amplified.
But the proof is in the pudding. nobody sounds better than Django in my opinion, and he originated the gypsy style picking, creating the high volume and incredible tone.