Exact Gypsy technique

Charles Meadows

I was reading the "beard" thread and thought this was interesting.

So how closely should one imitate Django and the traditionalists?

I spent years in flatpicking trying to emulate Tony Rice. Anyone who knows him realizes how hard this can be. One can come close but be yet so far! But in bluegrass circles being a "Tony clone" is not a compliment. Most of the top newer guys (like Bryan Sutton, perhaps my favorite bluegrass picker) emphasize the importance of finding your own style and not being a clone. Personally I don't think I have the improv ability to every find my own true style - but that's a different topic.

But In GJ circles is it the same? Is someone who emulates Django near-perfectly looked on favorably? Denis probably can comment best on this.

And are there bunches of people who are "Stochelo clones" or "Angelo clones"? Just curious.

dennis

i dont have time any more to write long comments i'll be very quick.. i personally don't look favorably at a person just because he uses "authentic technique" whatever that means...

but that other thread was blown way out of proportion, it started out as something really simple ha... basically, if someone is serious about learning music and comes to me for lessons, then i will show him/her everything i can, simple as that; in the end the student makes his/her choices.

in that thread, i was really just talking about rhythm, and like i said towards the end of it, it isn't actually that hard (to produce the sound anyway)... if someone wants to invent his own way of playing rhythm it's fine too, as long as the tempo is somewhat steady and doesn't get in the way of the soloist..

as far as soloing goes, whatever floats your boat is my philosophy. I do admit that i spent a lot of time copying some of my favorite players... less so these days, i try to make my own phrases.. bireli and stochelo went through that process.. gonzalo who is a highly original player went through that process.. george benson, joe pass did as well... so it definitely works; as to how far you go with copying, well , to each his own

Bob Holo

I've yet to meet an enthusiast who wanted to cram GJ into a little pidgeon hole and keep it there forever, and this is a remarkably mellow and harmonious chat board populated by people with a wide taste in music but a common interest in preserving and furthering this style of music. Hell, the board was started by a Fullbright Scholar in Ethnomusicology who did his thesis on the origins of this music, and you can't swing a cat in here without hitting someone with a music degree or a regular gig. So it's a nice group of folks with good intent and deep knowledge and experience and long fuses. The only thing that seems to make most of the people who contribute to this board froth at the mouth is when someone who has obviously given no thought or dedication or love to the underlying style will pop in briefly to hawk some trendy bit of pap, saying: "I'm going to show you how to play authentic Jengo Rainhard music" and butcher the music we love with complete disrespect. That's the only thing that really makes people pop out of their seats with both fists raised. All the other lesser shades of the "What constitutes Legit" conversation arise from time to time and play out as you've just seen. Along with "best pick" and "best strings" threads, they sort of serve as the calisthenics of this chat board... helping keep people's fingers in shape since 2005. Lol...

But to answer your question more directly, when the dust settles, we're just a bunch of people who care about an art form and want it to thrive. Toward that end, no one wants complete stasis and no one wants complete change. Ie., the goal is mastery, not mimicry, but mastery begins with mimicry as a means to build the tools.

Passacaglia

Bob Holo wrote:

the goal is mastery, not mimicry, but mastery begins with mimicry as a means to build the tools necessary

Yes. Perfect. I think this holds true in any art form. At least that's been my experience.

I know I'm doing everything I can to emulate Nous'che Rosenberg. I can't say, "it's not all that hard," though I understand and appreciate the subtext contained in the statement. For me, it's that hard. Because he's that good - in another context, someone I once knew would have said, "I can't see any holes" - and Nous'che has been doing it all his life. Impossible reach, but what the hell. I think gods and goddesses are good to have.

AmundLauritzen

Long post incoming. Bear with me :P

I think imitation is a necessary thing to do while you find your own voice. Look at all the masters: Bireli, Stochelo, Angelo etc... They all started copying the same guitarist: Django Reinhardt. What makes them all sound so distinctively different is they then went on completely different paths, learning from other musicians. I deliberately chose these three guitar players as an example because IMO they are not only in a league of their own, but they are all unique players who sound completely different.

I think finding enjoyment in practicing is essential to progress. Of course, some times we have to practice things that are not very enjoyable but a necessary stepping stone to get to the good stuff: proper technique is a requirement to play music effortlessly. Without that, it will be extremely hard to go on mastering the other nuances, and what speaks particularly to you.

The good thing about imitating good players is that you get it all in one package: technique, vocabulary, learning to construct a good solo, timing(by playing along with the record slowed down to a comfortable speed) etc... as opposed to the other approach: working on all these aspects separately. Sometimes, it IS necessary to isolate a component that you're lacking in. But when you leave out the imitation part, all these concepts become separate entities that you have to delegate enough time to, so you can cover every aspect and become a well rounded player. So imitation is sort of a "package deal" approach to assimilating all the different nuances of a style in an intuitive manner. It becomes second nature that way. Of course, you also have to dissect licks from solos and organize them harmonically so you have "trick bags" of licks and movements that work for each chord change. But after you have done that enough, that process becomes automatic and you'll find yourself doing all that on autopilot when learning a new solo or lick.

So I'd say: imitate the players who you listen to the most. You don't even have to learn whole solos. You hear one player play a cool phrase, you learn that one phrase. When you collect from different players, not only do you get different nuances in your vocabulary, but once you start improvising your subconscious will make sure you create variations of a lick. You can learn a lick, and then after a year it will be completely different because it has been transformed by having to be adapted to all the different contexts you have applied it to. That is when you start to sound original.

I discovered this when learning bebop jazz. For a long time, I'd study Tal Farlow. Then Pat Martino, then Joe Pass and so on. After a while I found out, gee, I must have done something wrong because I don't sound like those players at all. But then after further thought I realized that the things I had studied had become so integrated into my vocab that they had been transformed into something that was uniquely me. It was a huge revelation to me, and reinforced my belief in imitating to achieve originality, however contradictory that may sound.

With gypsy jazz, I am not there yet since it is a style I have only been playing for about 2 years or so. At the moment, I am concentrating on the style of Stochelo Rosenberg, but I also grab the odd lick here and there from other players when I hear something that sounds so good I just have to learn it. I think that is a good way to work. Pick a guitarist and focus on his playing for a few years, then move on to another.
I believe Bireli did that(I can't say for sure) as he started with Django Reinhardt, then for a while his playing sounded a lot like George Benson, then he played more fusion-esque, then classical influences started appearing. Of course, Bireli is obviously an exceptionally fast learner.

If you can find a way to practice that is fun and fulfilling, but also makes sure you learn to sound authentic enough to be able to hang in a jam then you're doing something right. This is of course considering your goal is to hang in jams. Some people just want to play at home. In that situation, of course you do whatever you want as there will be nobody there to tell you what you're doing doesn't fit in context. You are the only and the final judge.
I guess what I'm saying is that everyone should strive to find an original voice that still adheres to the basic guidelines of the style of music they play. Listen to all the different players, the really good ones, and notice how radically different they sound yet they all play things that fit in the style.

anthon_74

The only thing I would add is that the rhythm Pompe' must be done one of 2 or 3 different specific ways (dutch style/classic django style/etc) to get that gypsy bounce, and the gypsy Picking must be done to some degree to get good tone out of the Selmer style guitar. Other than that, however you figure out how to find your voice is the right way to play.

Anthony

Charles Meadows

Thanks for all the great responses.

I have always liked trying to duplicate stuff. Perhaps it's because the stuff just sounds so good and I want to be able to do it. And perhaps it's because I am not a naturally great improviser.

My biggest influence now by far is Angelo. I'm trying to get through about half of "Trio tout a Cordes". Do any of you guys know who influenced him besides Django?

Jazzaferri

If you cant duplicate one of the better players in rhythm, I rather suspect that one doesn't have enough technique to develop ones own rhythm style.

The real foundation of this music is the rhythm. It performs the harmonic function of a rhythm sectiton and the timekeeping pulse in place of drums. IMO it is way more critical to get this right than the lead playing, which given a solid rhythm can work really inside the box or outside al la Ferre bros.

However wild they might get they can lay down a rhythm track of any of the "styles" if they choose.