Gypsy Rhythm: How loud should it be?

Bones

11

JK :-)

Steveareno

Jon wrote:

Just echoing that Fapy plays and teaches hitting all 6 strings on every stroke. He has a light, traditional, really swinging rhythm sound - my favourite. As Denis said, dynamics is not just about how many strings you hit - you should be able to play under most soloists while still hitting all the strings if you are relaxed and in control.

Jon

Interesting observation. A lot of jazz players seem to focus on the middle four strings, both for chord shapes and picking.
Swang on,

dennis

here's a great video of soft but powerful sounding rhythm playing despite whacking many strings (maybe not all but most on the 1st beat, and all on the 2nd beat), skip straight to 1:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEyT0yRgOBg

btw the reason i like to teach students to hit all the strings is to get them to use a full range motion, lots of beginners seem to have trouble with that; watch the above video for example, he might not hit all the strings (he probably nails 4-5), but his range of motion is very good and he lets his wrist fall on the downstrokes

Jon

dennis wrote:

here's a great video of soft but powerful sounding rhythm playing despite whacking many strings (maybe not all but most on the 1st beat, and all on the 2nd beat), skip straight to 1:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEyT0yRgOBg

btw the reason i like to teach students to hit all the strings is to get them to use a full range motion, lots of beginners seem to have trouble with that; watch the above video for example, he might not hit all the strings (he probably nails 4-5), but his range of motion is very good and he lets his wrist fall on the downstrokes

Man, that rhythm sounds great!!!! Ok, going off to practice now

guit-box

This is an excellent discussion. That Martin Limberger video is a good example of hitting all the strings and still playing lightly, so clearly it can be done. Thanks for posting it.

It seems to me that there are lots of ways to do the rhythm and hitting less than 6 strings also works and is legitimate pompe, even if it's not traditional. This video of Nous'che looks like he's only playing the low 4 strings with an occasional 2nd string
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRzELt_2Cyk

This modified pompe at 3.24 is very nice. A soloist could play with a larger dynamic range with this kind of rhythm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0AWGDqYNf8

This example around 1:30 is also nice, but a little heavier on the bass sound. It looks to me like he's *mostly* playing 4 strings on all 4 beats. I can see his hand go past the first string sometimes, but it doesn't seem like he's applying any pressure to strings 1 and 2. But, correct me if I'm wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D--cQRSaIu4

Andreas Oberg-- nice light and relaxed pompe on lower strings at .50 before he goes into a gallop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6ixj3Hc64Q

One of my favorite things to hear in Bireli and Stochelo's playing is the sustaining vibrato. I also like to hear the wide crescendo and decrescendos. I think their soft rhythm players help make their solos shine in this way. (aside from being geniuses, of course)

Another guy who has a soft rhythm player is Joscho Stephan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99R7VW9Q ... AC3DA9DDDF
I know it's not traditional, with no pick being used, but the rhythm is certainly not getting in the way of the solo. I read a quote somewhere that aside from his rhythm player, Joscho really likes Nous'che's rhythm because of its lightness. Also, speed is inversely proportional to volume. One of the things that allows a soloist to play fast for an extended period is lightness--much harder to do over a heavy rhythm.

Jazzaferri

why is playing fast over a heavy rhythm harder?

I do agree that a light rhythm allows for much more in the way of dynamics and some guitars start to break up the sound when chorded really hard...perhaps too many conflicting overtones

dennis

here's another good example of heavy / aggressive tone yet soft in volume



this is me playing rhythm but i use the same heavy sound (at tcha's request), but again i try not to play too loud,... and notice that for the bass solo, i pretty much keep the same sound but play even softer

guit-box

That Patrus53 rhythm player is awesome. His rhythmic feel is very similar to the Gonzolo clip I posted. The soloist is also great--makes me think I should put down the laptop and practice. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, just my observation-- he's mainly playing on the low 4 strings.

anthon_74

Digressing slightly -

Are you sure Joscho stephan's rhythm player is using NO Pick ? I always figured he had a pick hooked on to his thumb or something.

Also, I agree 100% with what Dennis said about teaching beginners to hit all the strings, as they tend to hit only the top string on the 1 and 3 because of bad right hand technique. It's kind of like when a beginner plays a scale, they always sound staccato in their playing, not because they want to, but because it's easier to hop from note to note then to hold each note until you get to the next one. So you have to teach them legato so when they DO play Staccato it's by choice.

bringing it back to rhythm - once you have the pompe hitting all the strings, you can try it dutch style and only hit the top string on the 1 and 3 intentionally.

Anthony

Passacaglia

guit-box wrote:

This is an excellent discussion. That Martin Limberger video is a good example of hitting all the strings and still playing lightly, so clearly it can be done. Thanks for posting it.

Ridiculous for this tyro in the style to opine on anyone's playing, but Martin is such a master. Denis was kind enough to point out players in the vein I'm seeking to master, and Martin is one of those artists. Look up DePiotto's "Gypsy Passion", an older CD. The Limberger clan (Martin, Jan, Tcha, among others) and Fapy Lafertin. It's one of my top 5, listen to it often.

guit-box wrote:

It seems to me that there are lots of ways to do the rhythm and hitting less than 6 strings also works and is legitimate pompe, even if it's not traditional. This video of Nous'che looks like he's only playing the low 4 strings with an occasional 2nd string
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRzELt_2Cyk

Guit-box, Nous'che is hitting the lower strings on beats 1 and 3. On beats 2 and 4, he is hitting every string. True enough, lots of ways to do rhythm. This pattern (bass-side on 1 and 3, every string on 2 and 4), is common. Look up Hono Winterstein as well.

guit-box wrote:

This modified pompe at 3.24 is very nice. A soloist could play with a larger dynamic range with this kind of rhythm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0AWGDqYNf8

Ha! Yep, Hono. These lessons from Denis's site are great, and Hono is very clear and helpful in his teaching here. Another example of hitting bass strings on 1, 3, all strings on 2 and 4. That bit at 3:24 is what we were talking about earlier - that's the style Bireli taught Hono, a more "modern" thing. He actually explicitly says so - that it's necessary to adapt to a soloist, that a given soloist may not want to play in a traditional style, and so he shows this "modern accompaniment" style (per Bireli) with the palm straight and resting as it is. I use that as well, sometimes, but very sparingly...sometimes, with our bassist when soloing, and if we're in a more "modern" vein. One thing I've learned from Nous'che is his use of chromatic m7ths going down (in what could also be rhythm changes down to the tonic), sounds "modern" when compared to a standard 6-2-5. I've certainly seen and used this before, but learned how much Nous'che puts it to use. Just taste.

Denis has talked about this - sometimes it can be really hard to tell what players are doing, from vids - particularly if he or she is going fast. I think Nous'che's a great example. His touch is very light; particularly when he's going really fast (as he is, quite often), I think a lot of people perceive that he's using no upstroke. But he is, most of the time, at least the stuff I've seen and learned from...but his upstroke is always subtle, and it can seem it's gone, when it's not at all.

guit-box wrote:

This example around 1:30 is also nice, but a little heavier on the bass sound. It looks to me like he's *mostly* playing 4 strings on all 4 beats. I can see his hand go past the first string sometimes, but it doesn't seem like he's applying any pressure to strings 1 and 2. But, correct me if I'm wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D--cQRSaIu4

Lots of talk here on Gonzalo's style. He really digs "growl" in his 1, 3, and he's very straight otherwise. Part of this "young lions" "Parisian" thing I spoke of earlier. Poke around on this site for a very thorough discussion of this very thing.

Just wanted to throw in some thoughts. Rhythm is a vast subject, much more than I think a lot of people consider, when looking at GJ. It's certainly consumed me, it's what I want to do; and it will probably take the rest of my life.