Too Many Notes

cbwim

A recent experience at a Django Jamming Class at a music camp has gotten me thinking about much of the modern Gypsy Jazz music scene. Some of the music I see performed at DjangoFest and in recordings either really excites me or leaves me with the feeling that its played too fast with "too many notes", to borrow the phrase uttered by the King to Mozart when the King's advisors took issue with young Mozart's operas simply out of spite and arrogance (see the movie from 1984 called "Amadeus" - its a hoot). Its one of the best scenes. I think I have figured out why some of this modern Django inspired stuff stuff leaves me feeling unimpressed and why some of it knocks my socks off.

It all has to do with performing for dancing. I've had the experience of being in other kinds of dance bands, most recently for traditional dancing of Galicia, Spain (music played on the Gaita Galega, drums, accordions flutes). There is a totally different feel playing for dancers at the dancer's rhythm versus simply playing tunes, like in a session. I find I play much better when dancers are present.

In this particular Django Jamming class, this particular teacher approached the music really fast and it just didn't swing for me. Had we been playing for dancers it would have been great. I gave myself a blister on my left hand just playing rhythm - I could barely keep up and this ruined my hand for the remainder of the week. Soloing was impossible. I used that time slot the rest of the week for other pursuits and the teacher ignored my recommendations that she perhaps take it down a notch, saying that this is the way that all the moderns play it. True, but what good is it if it doesn't swing?

Similarly, I can feel the difference between many of the modern Gypsy Jazz upstarts who play for audiences only, and the ones who play for the occasional dances. The differences are huge. Django himself played many dances as part of his regular routine and his music swings, even when he is playing in the studio. Playing for dancers has the general effect of improving one's overall playing by keeping it on human terms. When one plays for dancers one can imagine their presence even when practicing alone.

While its certainly impressive to witness the technical skills of these modern players who can play really fast really well, aided by youth, adrenaline and testosterone, these stellar performances always leave me kind of cold and wishing I had spent that bit of precious lifetime and ticket money doing something more useful, such as making compost for my garden or watching Star Trek reruns. I don't even find their recordings enjoyable. I am left with this undigestible feeling of witnessing "too many notes". On the other hand, one can detect those who have played for dancers perhaps even in other types of music if not this particular type of jazz - and it really swings!

kevingcox

Different strokes and all that.

Steveareno

+1. Love this stuff when it swings, don't dig the shredding. Used to play out in a "covers band" and always enjoyed the gigs when there was dancing. It forced the band to lay down a groove and interact with the audience. Sometimes head cutting sessions can be magical, but it's not about speed for the sake of speed. Saw Albert Lee at a free concert last week (one of the fastest guitarists ever). He managed to sound relaxed, no matter how fast he was picking.
Swang on,

anthon_74

Dude, we pretty much discussed this very topic until the cows came home last year after I started this thread shortly upon returning from Django in June - viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10747

I've come to a few conclusions over time -
I agree with you that the higher speeds and the overly notey solos aren't conducive to dancing, which is what fueled the swing era.
BUT - Playing Gypsy jazz can be more than one thing - It can serve the purpose of accompanying dancers (which I personally believe would/will dramatically fuel it's revival in popular culture - Go online and download songs by Caravan palace to hear what it can sound like).
BUT - Gypsy jazz is also like this GRAND puzzle and it is a lot of fun to explore the different ways to complete it. It can be VERY fun to play a note filled solo, even if it's not the most musical way to play. You can try to phrase just like Django if you want. In my experience, watching a couple of great players up close where there's no need for amplification, can be AWESOME.

I also think... I don't KNOW, but I SUSPECT that when you get to be as good as guys like Gonzalo and Adrien mogniard, you want the challenge of playing at higher tempos, and testing your own ability because it's FUN.
AND I think that it's natural in the life of a guitar obsessed person to try every possible facet. Maybe you are putting as many notes in your solos as you can so that someday you can take them OUT and still have the foundation of infinite options of where to go, BECAUSE you played too many notes for so long.

To me, the bottom line for what makes me like a player or NOT is when I see the JOY in there eyes and emanating out of their being by playing the music. If that's missing, it doesn't matter what speed they're playing.

one of my favorite "speed" guys is Joscho Stephan, because when he plays you REALLY see his JOY. The flip side in terms of style is Rino Van Hooijdonk, who phrases a lot like django with that old school flare, but what makes him compelling is the JOY he brings.
Some guys seem like they've got demons running through them when they play... That doesn't work for me.
The JOY and the LOVE is what makes people come back.

That said, I would LOVE to see more dance floors at gypsy jazz shows. That way you know the ladies will show up.

Viva Django !

Anthony

Jazzaferri

as my first music mentor Joe Arseneau, a fabulous swing guitar player told me 5o odd years ago.

Good musicians spend the first part of their careers seeing how many notes they can put into a piece and the latter part of their careers seeing how many notes they can take out. Twas ever thus methinks. Don't judge it...listen and if it gets overwhelming move on..... :shock: :twisted: thats what I d.

I remember when young all the tall tales we told each other, each trying to outdo the previous teller....its a fun part of being young ..... No different in this k=language we call music.

MaximusVolumus

Well put Anthony!

Moggy

What a great thread.
I'm new to gypsy jazz guitar playing, but what first struck me when listening to many of the modern players was they seemed to be putting aside what it was that made Django Reinhardt's music popular in it's day. ..which was little memorable melodies that the average person could remember and whistle in the streets, or hum to themselves while washing the dishes. That's why people bought his records and why you still know of him today. They could tell he had great technical ability, but probably didn't really care much. They wanted to whistle a tune.
Please let me know if you find any modern players that produce original, memorable tunes, and I would love to hear them and buy their music. But the never ending long strings of speed-metal-type notes that I hear from so many players now just frankly bore me to tears, and I really think they're only of interest to guitar aficionados, and do little to increase the modern audience for Gypsy Jazz.
So for me, what's needed is more "Bossa Dorado's" and "for Sephora's" and admiration for the skills of melody writing backed with style and subtlety, .... and less adulation for how many arpeggio notes you can cram together per second. Just my personal opinion.
All the best, Paul

pickitjohn

"IT"S ALL GOOD"

I find myself more moved by "the swing" and catchy melody.

Moggy welcome to the community, lot's of opinion's and good advice around here.

I would check out Fapy Lafertin.
His playing makes me feel really good.
There's was a site with a bunch of out of print stuff you could download, IT"S GONE
WASO recordings. If you could find them there great.

I would check out any of his stuff you can get ahold of. The Fapy Lafertin and Le jazz.

You can get it here:
http://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com/Ite ... in-le-jazz

Of the 37 songs on that album about thirty of them have made it to my FIVE STAR G. J. LIST
Star Eyes is also the best! Michael is out of it
Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Once it's on my iPod, if I don't care for it I can skip it.
If I do, it becomes part of my favorites and hopefully future repertoire.

pick on

pickitjohn

Lango-Django

Some guys seem like they've got demons running through them when they play... That doesn't work for me.

I think I know exactly who you mean, Anthony, but you've got to admit that close-up sightings of such real life guitar demons are rare and, in their own way, rather entertaining... Just hold on to your camera or it may dematerialize!

AmundLauritzen

Fast or slow, I don't care.

Thing is, regardless of speed you can tell if people are just rattling off their tricks or if they are playing genuine music.

It's the big picture of a solo that counts. When a player plays one phrase that logically follows the other, building some sort of story to engage the listener, then it can be any tempo IMO. Doesn't matter.

You hear people play rubbish in slow and fast tempos. Tricks, excessive chord soloing, filler stuff.

I like the word "momentum" because it perfectly describes a good solo. Because a good solo plays itself. The player will tell you that if you ask him. One phrase magically appears after another, and the musician isn't even aware of what is happening - almost. That's jazz at its best.

You can lose momentum through hesitation, or by forcing licks that don't make sense in the solo like many "trick players" do.
Many players do this loud chord solo thing, expecting to create interest by tremoloing, sliding and banging out chords 2 or 3 choruses.
Pretty much the only player I've heard who can do that well for extended periods of time, is Tchavolo Schmitt. When most others do it, it just sounds contrived. Good players in general also tend to stay away from excessive chord soloing.
Listen to Stochelo. When he uses chords in a solo, it's often sparsely but at the right place. Same with Paulus, Fapy etc...

Went off on a tangent again, didn't I? :P
But anyway, that's my point of view on the whole fast/slow thing. The tempo itself is pretty much irrelevant.
One of my favorite "too many notes" solos that keeps interest and generates excitement is the legendary "Hungaria" rendition by Bireli: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwmpuvj8dSw

It's fast, but there is no rubbish. It keeps you on your toes all throughout. Because Bireli keeps the momentum going. He has such a surplus of dynamic effects in his playing that he can keep going for a long time before he starts to run out of steam dynamically, hence he can keep the momentum going.

So yeah. My 2 cents for what it's worth.