Concert pitch 440-442

Barengero

Hi Bones,
the accordions are tuned to 440 Hz while the guitars and the bass are tuned to 436 Hz.

best regards,

Matthias

Bones

Hmmmm. I think 436 to 440 is about 16 'cents'. That would be a pretty audible difference in pitch.

Does that create some dissonance that they seem to prefer?

thanks

MacKeagan

Dissonance...hmmm...yes. I remember a Cuban bassist who brought me a tape of his little salsa band. I played it on my car stereo (back in the 1990s) and every time I played it, my girls, aged 8 and 5, would start arguing and fighting in the back seat. I decided to have a closer listen on the big speakers at home, so I cranked it up, and after a bit i realized that the flute was out of tune with the singers, and the bass and guitar were also out of tune with each other. Every one of them was out just a wee bit, but discernibly so. intentional? or just sloppy? Maybe a good way to "liven things up" by causing bar fights...or maybe if you drink enought tequila it sounds pretty good?

Barengero

I think it has to do with the fact that the accordion is always a little bit dissonant in itself. These french guys play their (very, very expensive) Cavagnolos and Mugais in the so called "Americain" register. As I mentioned earlier, the recordings sounded well. And we are talking about serious musicians like Jean Claude Laudat or Marcel Loeffler and not about some crappy Salsa freaks. The difference between 436 Hz and 440 Hz is definetely not sloppy, but very intended, as I pointed out.

I just wonder why this can work, because I - like most of us - would have expected a total crap.

Any thoughts?

Best,
Barengero

Jazzaferri

How wet are the accordions

Al Watsky

So this is getting interesting.
I like the comment about pitch creep in pipe groups. It would be rather easy for a whole group to raise pitch by adjusting the chanter reads.
I do not think people liking higher settings is any indication of age or deafness .
Orchestras do it for similar reasons. Its brighter, its the only description I can use.
Many people with perfect pitch often prefer a slightly sharper than 440 pitch. If they are bowed string instrument players. Its very common amongst string players.
I've asked why, and it seems to be a universal constant amongst those that I have talked to that have perfect pitch.
In general accordions are pitched at 442 because the nature of the reed and its method of producing pitch also flattens as the reed is stressed so an accordion tuned 442 will tend to sound at 440 if played mezzo forte or forte. Its physics.
Most folks with good ears if playing will make adjustments to intonate well with other players. Its part of being a good musician .
Thats a whole other matter.
So the posters citing the band that tuned to 436 or whatever was tuning to that pitch because of a certain accordion and its accordionist.
Tuning to 436 for stringed instruments is not any sort of universal norm.
I would think that that was a solitary instance. At least in my experience.
I often work with accordion. I've gone 2 ways with it. Tune to the accordion or not.
Its best when playing strings with accordion to tune 440 if the accordion is at 442 which is the norm.
If we were to tune 442 the accordion would sound hopelessly flat to our strings when playing triple forte.
I play in one band that has both accordion and piano. In America the accordion will be 2 cents sharp of the 440 tuned piano at most halls. In europe it will be in tune with the 442 concert tuned piano.
What I was initially talking about was if any of the string players in this case guitar players enjoyed tuning sharp for the usual reasons.
Not this rock thing where you tune down, thats an entirely different topic.
Bowed strings instruments can play in either tempered or non tempered pitch and will one or the other depending on the esthetic needs of the interval or chord or other instruments in the ensemble. Playing with a tempered instrument requires one type of intonation and playing with other bowed strings another.
I do not think tuning 2 cents sharp will have any effect on the plate tuning of any stringed instrument.

FWIW

Jazzaferri

Correct me if I am wrong but on a given accordion note the reeds are not tuned to each other. One is temper tuned to the note and the other(s) are tuned slighly off to get the wet quavery sound.

So in playing with an accordion if they tned to flatten with volume it would seem to me that tuning lower would be a good idea but if a ccordion is really wet as some players like it...the ear isn't really going to be able to tell.

Al Watsky

The MM reeds can be tuned wet,medium or dry.
As I said , I think its best to tune 440 to a 442 tuned accordion.
Not lower.
But initially this wasn't a thread about accordions.
Accordions are an odd tuning reference or standard.
They can be said to have been tuned at the factory.
Professionals re tune often, some amateurs never.
So ? Too variable.

Al Watsky

FWIW
I've been using 441 since my last post and like the feel and sound of that.
I was playing a 65 cm today for a gig and was happy.
Recording all this week with a a 67 cm at 441 playing to string bass and horns.
Theres so much pitch variation that the guitar being a bit sharp in theory puts it more in tune in practice.
Which is a coy way of saying that I think the horn player was sharp at the session.
So I guess its, tune to the track or to feel within a range of 440 and 442 for me.

Jazzaferri

One of the things I have been working on in both Sax and Vocal ensemble is pitch references and pitch correction.

Sax can play any note a semi tone down with just adjustments in the embouchure . So the idea is to play the most in tune one can given the pitch reference going on around.

This gets quite difficult and frustrating if others are palying out of tune as then the tension created inside from trying to tune to something gets pretty high. I am hoping one day that my sense of correct pitch will be strong enough to enable me to ingnore chaotic pitch situations.

Playing with a guitar or piano or other temper tuned instrument, is, so long as tuned, a straightforward deal. Lots of horn players, pros even, tend to play sharp on the high notes.