Djangomania!

Mac Hack

So this was on the Bravo!Canada channel, not to be confused with the Bravo channel, correct? Google searches don't really turn up much. Netflix doesn't carry it yet and neither does Elderly. I guess I'll have to wait awhile until its broadcast locally to see it.

Despite becoming increasingly absorbed in this music I have yet to make it to a Djangofest of any kind. The buzz for this film, the GJ message boards, and this thread has me just a little concerned but I think I've let Rene Worst, Jennifer Scott, and Michael Dunn talk me into BC Swing Camp this year. Sounds like fun!

Agent

TedGottsegen wrote:

In short, this documentary was about hypocracy, cultural differences, racism and misunderstanding - as they exist in this music.

I disagree: certainly it alluded to hypocrisy and idealisation, but it wasn't about those things. There were some okay-ish bits in this documentary, but the problem with it wasn't that it poked fun at Django fans or that it presented them with uncomfortable facts about themselves - and for what it's worth, much as I'm into this music, I don't feel that my interest in it is such a delicate, precious thing that it can't withstand some mockery or criticism - but that it didn't do these things in a very focused or coherent way.

Kastner's welcome to make unflattering documentaries about whomsover he pleases, but all I could see in this one was just a lot of insinuations and raised eyebrows.

scot

This is all pretty strange. It’s almost as if the guys across the way only read Ted’s post without reading anything that came before it. The entire thread here was strongly against dogmatism and sanctimony – something I felt like I saw too much of these days. Especially from beginners.

Rod reinforces a good point about the new converts being the most dogmatic. It’s always that way in difficult and pointless fields of endeavor. Just as the weeding out process is also part of these difficult endeavors. I have tried many of them – rodeo, motorcycle racing, surfing, climbing, soldiering, women, guitar playing – and sure enough, I got weeded out of nearly all of them. It’s an entirely organic process – there is no need for a police force as the weak, dull, insufficiently dedicated etc will surely fall by the way. There is a price to pay, though - you still wind up with a percentage of butt-heads even larger than in the general population when everything has shaken out...

What we call “gypsy jazz” covers an astonishing range of styles and musical ideas – from all the wonderful music of the Reinhardt and Ferret families throughout the history to all the many hundreds of people playing it in many different styles today. With this in mind it should be simple to see that there is room for just about anything here BUT dogmatism in our tent.

Agent, you’re right on the money about Kastner IMO.

Best
Scot

Jack

scot wrote:

Rod reinforces a good point about the new converts being the most dogmatic.

I think I've mentioned this before, but when my ex-wife was converting to Judaism, our local rabbi brought this up in one of the conversations we were having...if I remember right there's even a hebrew phrase for the type-maybe Ted or Michael can help me out? At any rate, the difference was astounding once we were in Israel, where so many have grown up in the religion-everyone was so laid back, and yet seemed much more connected to the faith...

Best,
Jack.

By the way, Ted: I just went back to check, and it turns out I was talking about I Heart Ted Gottsegen t-shirts...but that was when I was trying to sweet talk my way into your collection! I suspect the new version will be a big hit at the next DFNW, unless you start sending me some seriously rare stuff...

MichaelHorowitz

Jack wrote:

At any rate, the difference was astounding once we were in Israel, where so many have grown up in the religion-everyone was so laid back, and yet seemed much more connected to the faith...

That's actually a pretty good analogy. In fact, my experience is that most Israelis have very little intrest in religion at all. Being Jewish is a self evident reality if you're living in Israel. Jews in the diaspora have to constantly fight the forces of assimilation so religion and/or ethnic symbols become much more important.

So, since just about all of us are non-Gypsies who live far from the European center of this music, we live in a sort of Gypsy Jazz diaspora. Hence, we have the same need to fight the assimilating influences of other styles of music. Straight ahead jazz, rock, bluegrass, etc. So the ultra orthodox Gypsy jazzers will only play the most traditional stuff on Selmers...the conservative Gypsy jazzers still use the trad. techniques but mix it up with some other stuff (I'd say I fit in the catagory). And the reform Gypsy jazzers, well, they play Django on Strats and toss in Stevie Ray Vaughn licks over Nuages!

Personally, I think there's room for everyone. I might not necessary like what some people are doing with Gypsy jazz. But I also accept that it's what they want to do and that's fine. The only time I'll get stern with people is when they tell me they really want to learn Gypsy jazz and then start ignoring all the basic techniques of the music. To play within the accepted aesthetic of this music you have to master some basic skills: good rhythm, good acoustic tone, repertoire, and few others. I think it's fair to draw the line there.

But if George Benson wants to do a Gypsy jazz inspired recording with a kazoo section, that's fine with me too.

In the end, I think everyone wants the same thing: To be able to play good music. There are many ways to get there...and unfortunately there are a lot of dead ends too. Some people think they can buy their way there by buying the "right" equipment. Others think mindless mimicery will make them great. And some just do enough drugs that anything sounds good to them.

The truth is that it takes a little talent, and lot of dedication and practice over a long period of time. A lot of folks have a hard time coming to grips with that and therefore get frustrated. Then they start looking for all sorts of reasons why they haven't immediately become a great player. And it can get nasty when that manifests itself in negative behavior. We've all seen it before...dissing of other players (often who are great!??), total disdain for "beginners", equipment snobbery, etc.

Anyway, I'm not sure why Dan Kinter was so offended by Ted's post. I've talked to him many times and he seems like a nice guy who's really into the music. I'm sorry that he won't join this forum and has so much disdain for DjangoBooks. But I honestly am not sure what I did to become the target of this kind of aggression.

-Michael

Carter O`Brien

And some just do enough drugs that anything sounds good to them.

Really! Where do I get these drugs, because nothing I'm ingested so far has had this potentially desirable effect!

MichaelHorowitz

Carter O`Brien wrote:

Really! Where do I get these drugs, because nothing I'm ingested so far has had this potentially desirable effect!

There's a reason Amsterdam is a center for Gypsy jazz...ha ha

a

and the ultra-orthodox dress up like django everyday- and instead of a bar-mitzvah, they accidentally light their houses on fire. and, they refuse to shave the moustache. and instead of not touching women, they womanize.

MichaelHorowitz

a wrote:

and the ultra-orthodox dress up like django everyday- and instead of a bar-mitzvah, they accidentally light their houses on fire. and, they refuse to shave the moustache. and instead of not touching women, they womanize.

ha ha...sounds like fun!

SoulShade

Like most things in life there is always more going on (in Gypsy Jazz) than appears on the surface. It takes an interest in what lies below the surface to really get anywhere. I for one enjoy the digging...If people think they have problems talking guitars etc. in the GJ world, they should try talking about (just) something as simple as capacitors in an audiophile forum! -s