gypsy jazz on bebop

Franz Morales

I've been wondering... I've heard bebop players improvise over gypsy jazz (basically, bebop style soloing over a gypsy rhythm), but haven't heard gypsy jazz style soloing over bebop rhythm.

Any samples? (I have no idea what search terms to use in youtube)

kungfumonk007

Not exactly Bebop but closer -

Jazzaferri

Not sure what you mean by bebop rhythm myself.

Jazzaferri

You want to hear gypsy meets bebop listen to Django's blues for Ike. That piece above is way to harmonically simple. The Stephan clip is not beboppy at all IMO. Its a modal jam piece in the middle of a tune.

Birelli went through a thing with bebop if I recall correctly. Might check out some of his stuff.

Al Watsky

If you give a listen to Matelo Ferret you will hear lots of standard swing time. Complete with trap set. The recently released Matelo compilation is full of Bebop era "commercial" jazz treatments of standards and other material. If it were classical music it would be referred to as "common practice period" settings . Nothing new under the sun. As far as I can tell its the Gypsy Jazz revival people that have defined the genera as this downbeat heavy "le pomp" style rhythm. The originators of the music were much less doctrinaire,just musicians working in the style of the day with instruments available to them . IMO Hono is the only guy I hear that can make that interesting . :bow:
Rhythm should be a fluid continuum not a prison.

Franz Morales

thanks Al , I think that's the answer I was looking for... basically, someone playing the gypsy way in a more modern setting. Blues for Ike is also a great example though. I really don't know how to phrase it perfectly but what Al says seems closest to what I mean.

kungfumonk007

Also Joscho's Gypsy meets Jazz album - I don't have the whole thing but his "Spain" is awesome - again not exactly but bebop, but I appreciate the experimentation that Joscho does with GJ!

Jazzaferri

Franz I am still curious as to what you mean by bebop rhythm. Is there a song that stands out to you as an example.

In jazz terms bebop style generally refers to music with a lot of quick harmonic changes in it. Lots of chord changes.


For example Au Privave a bBird 12 bar blues in F concert

Standard blues for that era would be

F7....Bb7....F7...F7.... Bb7....Bb7....F7.....F7....C7....Bb7....F7...maybe up to C7 on the last bar for a turnaround.

Au Privave from the omnibook

F7...Gm/C7...F7...Cm/F7...Bb7....Bb7....F7...Am/C#7...Gm...C7...F7/D7...Gm/C7

Often with somewhat different changes each chorus depending on where Charlie was going. On fast tunes many of the older swing players just couldn't cut it at all.

Delauney reports that when Django first heard bebop his eyes lit up and he said something like .........ahhh....they play so fast...so fast.

One of the great tragedies of last century is that he and Bird didn't get to play together. I think hey really would have hit it off. They both had their own genius level musical vocabulary that was unlike anyone else's.

Franz Morales

Will check out Joscho;s album kungfumonk007! Thanks!

@Jazzaferri, i'm not really sure as I'm a newbie to GJ and jazz in general so the terms I use might be wrong. I will try to explain what I mean: I've heard of modern (not necessarily bebop) jazz players improvising over GJ rhythm (la pompe), but I haven't really heard a purely GJ style player (that is, arpeggio/chord shape-based soloing) play over modern jazz rhythm (bebop? smooth jazz-style? anything not used in la pompe that sounds 'modern').

Put another way, I've heard of players improvise over la pompe rhythm using 'modern' phrases, or phrases that sound... well, modern. That is, their solos sound modern (as opposed to Stochelo, Bireli, et al., whose phrases don't really sound dated, but still sound gypsy. Modern gypsy, if there's such a thing). What I'm wondering is what the traditional gypsy approach to soloing would sound like in a modern context. Django's 'Blues for Ike' is close (and most of his later recordings of course), but it's from a time when his playing was evolving to 'fit' in a more modern context.

Maybe the reason why I ask will give you an idea what I mean: As I mentioned, I'm new to GJ and jazz in general. So I'm wondering, now that I am studying strictly GJ, if what I learn will work if I jam with non-GJ jazz players. I love GJ, but modern jazz is just so-so for me. Given the lack of GJ players here, I feel I'll be jamming with 'normal' jazz players more. In a nutshell, will GJ be flexible enough to sound good with other styles?

Sorry for the long post, I really don't know how to explain succintly what I mean

Al Watsky

FM, There are elements of style that can't be taught they need to be learned by listening and emulation. Your observations about GJ rhythm and modern Swinging/Jazz rhythm are valid .
The elements of style that would limit the practical application of GJ style in the context of modern Jazz have much to do with harmonic and linear melodic norms .
The GJ vocabulary of rhythm is very limited in comparison to modern jazz and if you are to maintain the style it needs to remain that way or the GJ style police will issue you a summons. People actually will complain at a concert if the soloist does not play mainly straight eighth notes on the beat with strictly diatonic arpeggios. Its a very conservative scene in some ways.
The kind of playing that is the norm in modern world class modern jazz will get you the cold shoulder from the traditionalists in the GJ camp.
Its approached like a folk style by some fans and so its required that a player fit into the frame so to speak to achieve acceptance by the die hard style fans.
This is not un typical in several revivalist music scenes , not at all unusual in these fan bases for "traditional" ethnic or regional music. The fans want to hold the art back so they can classify it and so that the professionals can copy it and serve it up again. Its a stylistic comfort zone thing.
In the jazz world at large its also a viable commercial method. You copy old stuff and repackage for resale. Every scene does this. Its mainly a practical necessity.
So if you plan on playing the music professionally and plan on playing and teaching you have to approach the style as a rule based idiom with limitations as the market doesn't exactly want to fuse with the world music/modern jazz market place. It wants to sell it self as a distinct idiom apart from other styles . Its a marketing necessity. Really.
Art on the other hand will find its own way. Which may not be the way to the bank, which is what people are ultimately afraid of .
%-(
The idea of playing an acoustic steel strung guitar in a Jazz idiom is a great Idea. The Selmer type instrument is unique and very charming and demands dedication on the part of the player. My feeling is that anyone to commits to using this instrument as a means for artistic expression is to be commended and supported by the community .
As a friend who is a world class teacher of folk music once told me," we can not teach style". In folk traditions each player has their own approach to the material and style. In any attempt to "teach" the idiom the rules that are taught will in fact limit the possibility of self expression to such a degree that all we will be left with is hundreds of minor lights that will never illuminate in that way that the true innovators do.
Listen to the music and learn that way. Listen and sing the music you hear and then find it on your instrument and strive to make the sounds you want to hear from that instrument .
I only allow myself 1 cup of coffee a day. So thats it . Thats all I got . :-@

Jazzaferri

Impeovising in a harmonically vertical way ( chord based) was the first expression in jazz. It peaked in the swing era. It is a stage every jazz student must go through. It's still a part of learning the form of a tune.

Over time pushing through the limits of chord to chord to chord thinking one looks at the harmonic structure of a set of chord changes and comes up with scalar approaches that work through a series of chord changes.