Chord charts

wim

dennis wrote: »

As far as real diminished chords are concerned, G/B Bbdim7 Am7 D7, the Bbdim7 here is a real diminished chord. It is indeed a passing chord, but it does not substitute for a dominant chord.

these ones annoyed me too because with the G Ab° A-7 D7 it is pretty clear the dim is a substitute for a 6 chord in a 1-6-2-5, but you can not say the same with a G/B Bb° A-7 D7. and a diminshed chord in a chart is not really helpful for a soloist to find the right notes over, it doesn't give you much information and just playing diminshed arpeggio is too boring/cliché.

someone in paris showed me a different way to think of it (I forgot who but possibly mich mercier?) .. it can help to play as if it's a dominant 2 chord! like for example in Lulu swing, you have: I II7 ii-7 V7. it actually makes a good sounding turnaround too.

you see it again in djangology where you have this A7 C- G Bb° A-7 D7 G ... you can play more A7 stuff over the Bb°, maybe continuing an idea started in the first bar.

As for writing that "real" diminished chord into a chart, certainly if it was a turnaround my preference here would be just to simplify - write the bar with two beats of G and two beats of D7. Everyone knows how to play a few turnarounds and you get a feel for where/when they are pretty easily, they don't need to be spelled out in the chart. If you actually hang around on the dim chord (like in mabel) ... well I don't know it depends too much on context there is a weird one in "webster" too that I am still chewing on..

Jazzaferri

Wim....it seems that you don't like diminished chords.

How do you feel about alt chords or 13b9's

are you finding your vocabulary a bit limited? I truly would like to understand.

Lango-Django

What I like about this type of passing chords is how they create excitement by the device of the melody holding steady while the harmonic underpinning builds... "Ain't Misbehavin'" is a fine example, where the harmony rises from C to C# dim to Dm7 underneath the "No one to talk with..." melody... Then a similar rising line happens again a little later through the use of an augmented chord, this time C to C+ to F6 under the "No one to walk with..." part of the melody.

IMHO, the soloist is better off not trying to explicitly follow the passing chords in these kind of tunes, but instead strive to create the kind of substitute melody in which these cool passing chords sound, well, cool and passing...

Anybody who has ever listened to the composer of this song, Fats Waller, solo over these lovely sophisticated changes knows exactly what I'm talking about.





My .02 worth...

Jazzaferri

Well said Will...

wim

Jazzaferri wrote: »

Wim....it seems that you don't like diminished chords.

How do you feel about alt chords or 13b9's

are you finding your vocabulary a bit limited? I truly would like to understand.

not sure if you're being sarcastic or what ... but I love diminished sounds, use them all the time. What I'm trying to say is if I'm playing , say, [x4535x] over an A7 in the chart I'm still thinking of it as a nicely coloured A dominant sound, not as a Db dim7.

Certainly my vocabulary is limited, but just seeing a diminished chord in a chart without knowing what the context is only speaks about four notes we can use. To find out what other notes will work (and hence to have a few more options available than those all-too-familiar dim7 arpeggios or half-whole scale lines), you usually have to know what the diminished chord is a substitute for, which is not so easy to do in real time without years of practice and a solid understanding of theory!

It's easier if the chart just had what the chord was substituting for (usually a dominant chord) and let the player make their own diminished subs when/if they want to. Does that make sense?

this has nothing to do with alt chords or 13b9's (although I usually wouldn't write those extensions into a jam chart either .. a jazz player will know when those options are available!)

Jazzaferri

@Wim Glenn, in your post above where you commented on the diminished being a sub for a 6 chord it actually functions as a passing chord moving the bass line chromatically to the iI. When using diminished chords as a sub they are usually subbing for a dominant 7 family chord.

In your example above that you wrote that you didn't like the bass line moves from G Ab A up to D7 the dominant of G. The I, moves chromatically to the iI Which is the relative minor of the V7 the true dominant function.

I think if your theory is somewhat constrained, you might find more satisfaction in understanding what the harmony is doing rather than suggesting it be dumbed down. This style of music, despite the efforts of the GJ Police is still a variant of improvisational jazz. If you aren't sure what to play.....don't play anything....silence....rests, by another name.....is the most powerful tool in the box.

dennis

Wim Glenn wrote: »

someone in paris showed me a different way to think of it (I forgot who but possibly mich mercier?) .. it can help to play as if it's a dominant 2 chord! like for example in Lulu swing, you have: I II7 ii-7 V7. it actually makes a good sounding turnaround too.

Funnily enough, thinking about it that way would then make the A7 a substitution of Bbdim7 haha

Charles Meadows

I think I sorta get what Wim is saying. But I've absolutely no jazz improv background at all! So perhaps is it the case that when we "pomp" a diminished triad (like B dim instead of a full E7b9) we would be better off thinking about arps over the dominant 5 (like the 7b9) as opposed to just diminished? Or is this too "constrained" like Jazz was alluding to?

Buco

I get what Wim is saying but I for one appreciate the suggestion of the dim passing chord written in a chart. Well, now at this point I think I have an ear to be able to hear them too and use them at my own liking but for a new comer like I was until recently, it definitely helps.

Jazzaferri

If you use a diminished chord as a passing chord, what you play over it goes by pretty quickly, and the way I prefer to think on it is the overall harmonic statement of the phrase or section.

If a diminished chord is played for a bar or two, it quickly starts to define itself and the harmony. It is a pretty strong statement. You still have to figure out if you want to be crunchy or sweet, tension or release. That will define the bag of notes you have more than a chord.

For example. If you wanted to make people wonder, play only non chord tone lines over say a two bar diminished chord pompe. Would take Some practice time to figure out. But could sound pretty cool.