"French Polish" finish?

Bohemian · December 2014

The Bay Area tech was none other than Chris Berkov. He confirmed the guitar was French polished and it was he who did an undetectable and flawless repair (closed the crack in the top and no cleating) and an absolutely perfect French polish to the top matching the existing aging and coloration.

Bohemian · December 2014

A final note:

Ramirez did not do their own French polishing, it was farmed out to a specialist shop.. many of the polishers were women.

Rob MacKillop · December 2014

Well said.

Al Watsky · December 2014

Bohemian wrote: »

"The french polish on your Ramirez wasn't french polish."

I know for a fact that it was French polish..

The guitar was in fact French polished.. absolutely evident by look and feel , history and verification by professional makers.

I have one advantage in the "debate" , I owned the Ramirez and had it in hand. 650 (652 with compensation) scale, with friction pegs, euro spruce over cypress, cedar neck.

The French polish on my Ramirez was in fact French polish.

Ramirez' catalized, plasticized finishes came on board in late 1963.

I know for a fact that it was French polish..

Thats all cool an stuff. Heck its "crazy kool ! "
Fact remains French polish is fragile, if your finish wasn't , it may have been padded and applied in "the manner" but most folks when they talk FP are taking flakes dissolved in alcohol and applied with a pad and an oil as a lubricant.
So If your guitar was padded , thats the French polish bit, what they polished on there is another matter entirely .
Not to say it would not repair like a simple blend , but if it was as durable as you are saying its not likely it was the "simple" formula the Granada builders use for instance.
I've handled hundreds of Classical guitars and polished plenty of them. I have never seen a Ramirez that was post war that was FP'd.
Not to say they don't exist .
They must have I suppose, you say you owned one. I have no reason to doubt your word.
The early 60's ones I've worked on had nitro or sprayed varnish on there, they were not padded. There was no evidence if them being padded finishes.
Spanish guitars are some of the most perfectly finished things you will ever see in your life. What ever the finish, the Spanish builders are master finishers. Actually some builders in Spain out source their finishing.

Bob Holo · December 2014

It could have been that hot-rodded shellac that European shops used up till EU air-quality legislation put an end to it.

I've repaired a few vintage/seminal instruments that had it. This modified padding shellac was basically 1# cut shellac mixed with esterified and nitrated cellulose. It also contained chemicals necessary to get everything to liquify and apply and flash-off properly when padded (ethyl acetate, butyl cellosolve, napthalene & such)

Anyway, that might explain the shellac look and the shellac claims of the maker even though the finish wore more like nitro. It might have been a cellulose modified shellac. If you've finished furniture for 25 years, you've likely encountered cellulose modified shellacs. Mohawk makes at least three hybrid formulations in various cuts, IIRC.

Bohemian · December 2014

I make my finishes from flakes. Flakes, Ever Clear and some PFM.
Pure F

Magic. A formula from Vega.

Often the base coats of shellac are sprayed on, then padded. I used a product from Behelen for years, that over a shellac wash. It applies like, looks like shellac but wears like iron, much like what was on my Ramirez.

On one of the letters back and forth from the first owner of my guitar and Ramirez leading up to the order .. contaned the phrase "goma laca".

The guitar was $400 shipped to Florida including case, imitation shark skin in grey.. Very cool. It liked Savarez including would first.

BTW my De La Chica was also FP.

My friend and neighbor is Ray Reussner, long time student and friend of Segovia, a concert guitarist and former head of the guitar dept at a prestigious university and guitar maker over the last 10 years.. now retired from all.. except concertizing on a small scale.. has a wealth of information on Ramirez guitars.. he is out of the country at the moment, I'll see what he knows about the Ramirez and finishes. He owned a few of Segovias "cast offs".

Bohemian · December 2014

Behlen Qualasole :

http://www.shellac.net/brush_wipe.html

Al Watsky · December 2014

Bob Holo wrote: »

It could have been that hot-rodded shellac that European shops used up till EU air-quality legislation put an end to it.

I've repaired a few vintage/seminal instruments that had it. This modified padding shellac was basically 1# cut shellac mixed with esterified and nitrated cellulose. It also contained chemicals necessary to get everything to liquify and apply and flash-off properly when padded (ethyl acetate, butyl cellosolve, napthalene & such)

Anyway, that might explain the shellac look and the shellac claims of the maker even though the finish wore more like nitro. It might have been a cellulose modified shellac. If you've finished furniture for 25 years, you've likely encountered cellulose modified shellacs. Mohawk makes at least three hybrid formulations in various cuts, IIRC.

A yup... :peace:

Bob Holo · December 2014

Thanks for jogging my memory, gents! The name came back to me... Vernis Jacquelin(sp?) gomme lacque. But the company was bought by Becker Acroma who flirted briefly with the prospect of distributing it in America and then discontinued it. That was right about the time that McFadden had stopped shipping, before Seagraves purchased them and looooong before Seagraves began making their own McFadden(tm) lacquer, which (IMHO) isn't the equal of the original.

Ah mergers and acquisitions and the stack of 3-dollar MBA words used to justify them. In theory, acquisitions bring synergy, but in practice they destroy competence and put hard-won knowledge and expertise into the hands of people who neither know or care to use it.

But I digress, yes - Qualasole is about as similar as it gets today... and LacFrench & LacOver & RapidPad, (the repair versions which come in various cuts with various tpes of solvents and modifiers) Mohawk is a great finish company, and I love several of their products, but I shouldn't type that too loudly. Someone might read it and buy them to "monetize their brands" (uggh)