Jazz question

Charles Meadows

I know a lot of you guys here come from jazz backgrounds. How applicable to you find your music theory knowledge in GJ improv? When Stochelo plays a G minor arp over A7 I'm sure he's doing it because of the sound, and not in an attempt to imply a sus4b9 chord.

Or would, say, a Gm6 arp usually work fine in place of just Gm?

I tend to be a detail guy - but my sense is the Gypsy players tend to do more by feel and sound.

Just curious what sort of patterns some of you jazzniks who are also well saturated in GJ have noticed.

Thanks.

Scoredog

Charles, I can pretty much assure you it will vary from player to player. Just to stir the waters a bit further I see that Gmi as one of the 4 minor triads inside a diminish scale.

Scoredog

actually I mis-thought your post when I was relaxing on my balcony, I see the triad inside a D harmonic minor.

Jazzaferri

Music theory in jazz is a subject with a lot of different approaches. Is college we used Mark Levine's Jazz theory book which is somewhat modal in its approach

I am now working my way through Berklee's Jazz theory book which uses the chord scale approach. Both have their merits and there are others as well.

I am kind of growing into a chromatic scale concept with a few avoid notes in certain situations and releasing tensions by leading into and landing on certain chord tones.

The jazz language of the 30's and 40's is much more vertically based, with a focus on arpeggios and chords. Bebop on starts to get away from that concept to a more linear, approach. Modal jazz and post bebop took that concept even farther.

As Bird said, learn all your scales and theory and stuff, then forget about them and just play. He did spend around 4 years of 12-15 hours a day practicing on his instrument. Great interview with him and Paul Desmond discussing that.

bopster

A7 is a V chord of D, so you can think of the Gmi6 as an Emi7b5, which is the ii chord of D minor. It is a popular substitution.

As for how helpful is theory - it depends on the player. But - all the great players I have talked with that have an expansive knowledge at their fingertips, know basic chord spelling and inversions. It's just a part of knowing your instrument.

I also know players that can get through a set of tunes that they have practiced, but can't tell you what key they are playing in, the names of the chords they play or the names of the notes on the fretboard. They are, however, content to do things as they have been, and enjoy playing tunes they know. They cannot transpose to other keys, and play tunes the same way every time, but who am I to judge - they're happy!

Jazzaferri

Gm6 consists of G Bb D E

Those notes in reference to A7 chord are the b7 chord tone, the b9 colour tension note, the 4 an "avoid" or "handle with care note" on a dominant chord and the 5 (dominant) note which is a very inside note which when played towards the end of the A7 beats, the ear tends to want it to resolve up to the F# (3 of the D chord for which A7 is the dominant V) or down to D which is very settled ...almost like finishing a phrase or sentence.

Jon

I'd just like to say that no-one plays a susb9 structure for any other reason than for the sound. Whether or not they have a name for it, or understand patterns or systems that it may be a part of, everyone - one could argue especially those who know something about music theory - plays by feel and sound. The people who don't, don't suck because they know about theory, they suck because they're insensitive. Music theory, or less broadly jazz theory, is just the knowing of names for things, and the verbal understanding of patterns in music. It can vastly speed up your learning process once you already have a good knowledge of it, and, likewise, cause you pain and frustration if you don't.

For me it's been a huge help, and helped me develop my ears - which needed the help. Don't be fooled into thinking that people who don't know "our" names for things aren't basically thinking along the same lines though. The fact that some of the gypsy players consistently apply concepts in different keys and contexts proves that they do understand theory (which is, in my definition, simply the consistent application of sounds), if not through our vocabulary. It's the same language - the "sound" is the language, words like Super Locrian are teaching and mnemonic aids - they're not the ideas themselves. The ideas are the sounds, whatever you call them.

Jazzaferri

IMO the term music theory means the use of Spoken/written language to describe the harmonic/melodic/rhythmic structure of music.

It's ALWAYS much better expressed in the language of music. The broader ones musical vocabulary, (melody harmony rhythm) and the more fluency one has, the easier it is to say something meaningful......IF you have something meaningful to say.

If a player had no desire to discuss music theory via the spoken word they have no need to learn the spoken/written words for it....BUT they sure have to hear it.