Cedar VS Spruce tops

BluesBop Harry · April 2015

I think here's a good reference for the difference between Cedar and Spruce.
Adrien and Gonzalo are both playing Olivier Marin guitars.
One is Gonzalo's Cedar top with Walnut back/sides the other's an Spruce top Maple back and sides.
Adrien plays the Spruce top on Belleville and the Cedar on All the things you are.

The back and sides obviously affect the tone as well but by a very small percentage ( I have a Maple/ Cedar Marin and it sounds a lot more like Gonzalo's guitar)

They both played Cedar/Walnut Marins on their album Clásico

NOTE: I've tried posting this here http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/12398/ Where I think it should be. But somehow it never showed up on recent post and I wasn't able to delete it

Al Watsky · April 2015

In the long run Spruce is the best choice for a guitar top.
It repairs better , lasts longer and most ofter develops more clarity.
Cedar is cool though.
Spruce is better , which is not to say louder or this or that, just when judged one the whole it is the superior wood for top use.
Lots of folks love cedar guitars.
I own cedar guitars .
If you were to take 2 guitars one spruce and one cedar and play them new you would have one impression. After 7 to 20 or so years you may find that that cedar guitar is sounding a bit tired.
Depending on how much it has been played.

Russell Letson · April 2015

I have two cedar-topped instruments--a Marin (Montaro) classical (1975) and a Dunn Daphne (2001)--and neither sounds tired to me. My three redwood instruments (an archtop and a couple of flat-tops) are also quite lively after 20 years or so. I get the maintenance-repair issues (redwood in particular is pretty soft) but I confess to being a bit skeptical about the notion that a top can get played out. But then, my oldest guitars (90-115 years old) all have spruce tops, so there's no basis for comparison.

The impression I've gotten from the builders I talked to (and I talked to a lot when I was doing music journalism) is that no single element of a build formula determines the complete sonic result--it's always the way the elements are combined.

Al Watsky · April 2015

Trust me.
If they are heavily played they fatigue.
The repair issues have to do with fiber compression upon impact.
So it depends on the nature of the damage. Cedar crushes in a different way.
Cedar has a sound.
Its only one element true , but it has a characteristic sound.
Its not for everyone.
Its only advantage is that it opens up quickly and is loud.
Hey, its an opinion.
But its my opinion.
So I like it.
For the GJ thing I prefer spruce.
For archtops spruce.
Classical, spruce.
Thats what I like .
I like those old Marin's I've seen many of those. He's also a cool guy. I met him in NYC years ago.
Cedar has some charm.
But , I prefer spruce.

\m/

Jazzaferri · April 2015

I have a Juniper topped guitar....

)

Buco · April 2015

Thanks Al, all this cedar craze as of late made me start doubting my choice of top. When I ordered my guitar I had a choice of woods and for top wood I went with spruce. At that time I learned a bit about different properties of each wood and was really intrigued by the idea of cedar coming opened up out of the box but I figured I wanna grow with this guitar and hear it getting better over time, and that's exactly what's happened/happening.

Mandobart · April 2015

Don't know about GJ guitars specifically, but I have a Western Redcedar topped mandolin and octave mandolin, and they both have a warmer, mellower tone than similar spruce topped instruments. I also have a redwood topped mandocello and mandola. These have similar sonic properties to western red. I've never seen a wood with tighter, straighter, more even grain than western red as well. It is quite soft, though, and scars and dings easily. Many of the finest classical guitars are cedar.

Scoredog · April 2015

Personal choice here and maybe it's just the guitars I have owned and played but there is personality I like to a cedar top for GJ. Maybe a spruce top will come along to change my mind but that is my experience so far. On the clip above I preferred the cedar top.

Bob Holo · April 2015

Cedar (Thuja Plicata) and Spruce (Picea Abies / Rubens) have different performance characteristics. The difference between Red Cedar and Red Spruce, in terms of strength and density, is in the same ballpark as the difference between Honduran Mahogany and Indian Rosewood. Builders who understand that and build with that in mind will produce great instruments that last if treated well. One of my favorite gypsy guitars is Ismael Reinhardt's old cedar Jacques Favino, which is ... old... and has been played a lot... and the reason I like that guitar is that while it has a sophisticated sound, it also barks harder than most Favinos. It was built well and cared for reasonably and it's still a rocket.

Downsides of Western Red Cedar (and to a lesser extent, Redwood) WRC has a lower Modulus of Elasticity, which means it is less stiff (bend strength per volume) along the grain, and it also has a lower Modulus of Rupture, which means that it takes less force too split across the grain. It also has a lower Janka hardness, which means it takes less impact-force to dent it. What this means is that Western Red Cedar guitars are more likely to be damaged by heavy strings, blunt force impact (mic stand dings), tight cases with sheet music jammed under or on top of the guitar so that the top compresses sharply when you close the case, and severe changes in temperature or humidity which cause the guitar to expand and contract, where the softest wood on the guitar (the soundboard) is the thing that takes the brunt of the force. Cedar is more easily damaged and it “remembers” damage because it takes less force to crush its fibers. This is not black and white, but a thing of degrees. It's about 30% easier to break or crease cedar and it is about 40% easier to dent or compress cedar perpendicular to its grain. But while it is easier to damage Western Red Cedar, it is still incredibly easy to damage spruce. Both cedar and spruce are in the category called “soft woods” for a reason, and guitars that are repeatedly damaged just don't sound the same.

Upsides of Western Red Cedar (Redwood is similar – some more & some less in this category) WRC has a high end-grain compression / crush strength per volume. On a per weight basis, it's higher than spruce. This is the compression strength that the soundboard uses along the grain when it is undamaged. Compression strength does not fatigue. The laws of attraction / covalent bonds and laws of physics would need to be violated for that to happen. In fact, as WRC soundboards are usually thicker than spruce, to make up for the lower modulus of elasticity – in practice, cedar soundboards can have higher compression / crush strength than spruce. This does not fatigue. Part of the cedar “sound” if such exists, is the ability to get higher compression strength per weight. But, because the modulus of rupture is lower, cedar is more likely to stay crushed if you crush it. In other words, the crush strength is perfectly sufficient if you don't abuse it. Cedar is a wonderful tonewood, but it is easier to damage. I'm running out of ways to say that, but as it is the important part, I'm going to risk some repetition. Cedar and Redwood are also about twice as stable as spruce in response to humidity changes and a little better in the ratio of torsional stability, which means they expand and shrink less seasonally and are less likely to cup. This doesn't help cedar if the rest of the guitar is moving around due to heat / humidity / abuse, but it does mean that cedar is less likely to develop odd tensions of its own accord. Moreover, because cedar has a lower along-grain elasticity, it has greater anisotropy. Because it has less directional dependence, it is easier to create balanced strength along/across/diagonal to the string path through bracing, or to intentionally create asymmetry, and also to tailor the strength of the rim-soundboard contact in a more controlled way. This means you can tune for warmth or bark or balance more easily than you can with spruce, where the (along vs. across) strength are so markedly different and require more drastic thicknessing and/or bracing to achieve the same balance or to effect the same symmetry and/or asymmetry.

So, my recommendations are as follows:
1.) If you regularly abuse instruments, play the wood-block or triangle, it'll last you longer
2.) If you are a bit rough with your instruments sometimes, but you generally take care of them and you're worried about it, get spruce.
3.) If you exercise reasonable diligence in the care of your instruments, the world is your oyster – get whatever you want.

That being said, I've been building more with spruce lately because the simple fact is that many people abuse their guitars and building with spruce makes it about 30% harder for people to damage them. But there is no such thing as “cedar fatigue”. There is cedar damage. There is cedar damage where the guitar owner beats rhythm on his soundboard with his rings & knucles and then purses his lips and blinks his eyes and says: “Gosh golly gee, I have no idea why it doesn't sound like it used to... I used phosphor bronze 13's all last year and it sounded great, but now it doesn't.” and then throws a bunch of sheet music and a change of shirt in the case on top of the guitar and slams the lid... but there is no such thing as cedar fatigue due to age or playing. People who "fatigue" cedar guitars can take heart though, a guitar has been invented just for them... https://www.martinguitar.com/model/item/87-lx-black-little-martin.html

Al Watsky · April 2015

I guess my idea of "fatigue" has more to do with my perception of the tone of the cedar toped guitars I have heard ,and there have been hundreds, after the break in period. I find them to be flabby sounding. They may not be structurally fatigued but they sure sound tired to me.
Especially cedar classicals that have been heavily played. Too much low end information for me.
Its the same with the one Cedar top GJ guitar I own. too dark.
When referring to a sort of guitar abuse, the sort of thing some flamenco guitarists subject their guitars to , this flabby low end gets out of hand, that womp that some folks find appealing in cedar goes around the bend IMO.
Some folks burn through guitars and the cedar ones will go faster for those guys.
I continue to prefer spruce, superior stuff .
Its also interesting to note that cedar toped guitars are not that recent a development. I've seen several mid 19th century Italian guitars that were Cedar toped . Very small instruments. Ladder braced not fan.
Not exactly robust sounding , but were they ever ?
Spruce !
Horray for guitars !!