anyone seen this on ebay?

AndrewUlle

Thoughts on this - interesting?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Selmer-sound-alike-French-Gypsy-Jazz-Guitar-A-Courtil-The-Real-Deal-/252102050537

on youtube from previous seller:


It think sold for $289 last time it was on ebay - can't find that listing now.

Hugh Huffaker

In my opinion, it's missing that bright and punchy sound with short sustain that gypsy guitars are known for. I read his description on ebay and it seems a little far fetched.

ChrisMartin

Yes it did sell (?) recently for about that, but I think it was the same person listed it before. Also it seems Courtil was not a luthier but possibly a retailer, like Beuscher, Masspacher etc, in which case this could have been made by any of the French/Sicilian luthiers of the period. I had also seen an older 'D' hole guitar with a handwritten label spelled 'Curtil' but I suspect they are the same person and one is a mis-spelling. I had also read before a theory that Courtil (or Curtil) had worked for Busato but have found nothing to back that up.
I posted a question about that on here some time ago.

http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/13915/a-curtil

Also, I agree the sound on the YouTube above is a bit average, but I have heard some of the smaller bodied guitars that can hold their own; I have a a similar looking Di Mauro and it sounds as good as my other Di Mauros so don't discount them completely, and because they don't have 'the look' they are often sold cheap.

ChrisMartin

Further research shows there was an Antoine Antonin Curtil active in Mirecourt when that was a centre for luthiers making violins even before the guitar became popular. I have also a found another listing for a violin by another maker but with a case and bow signed Curtil, so it seems he was active, probably long before Busato came to town. There was a retail store named A.Curtil in Neuilly-sur-Seine also later known for selling pianos. I have found many references to Curtil violins and one violin specialist website said this about one such listed; "Born 1872 died 1933. Set up shop in 1896 Curtil was a dealer and collector as well as a maker, many violins signed by him were in fact the work of other good makers. This example is probably the work of Mougenot." Another German site has Antoine Curtil setting up shop at Blvd St. Germain in 1896.

There was another Curtil guitar sold recently from a store in Paris, see this link;

http://www.gbase.com/gear/curtil-jazz-manouche-1950-natural

So it is more likely guitars labelled Curtil were made by others. Anyone recognise this? Could this be where the Busato rumour started? The body is almost Di Mauro shaped, but it is unusual being a 'D' hole model with a 14th fret neck join. Also note the tenth fret marker could indicate a Sicilian maker.

Another violin for sale in France (made by another Mirecourt luthier) has its original 1930 bill of sale from "Au Bon Marché Musical" de A. Curtil a Neuilly and another has a bow for sale made by l'Atelier de Louis BAZIN, which is signed A Curtil of Paris.

Also there are many other references to an A. Curtil as a piano maker active in Paris between 1892 and 1905, which was then taken over by one Edouard Coiffier. Could this be the same person, or a relative?

By the way, the 'Courtil' currently on ebay clearly shows the spelling Curtil on the label inside, so the mis-spelling is the fault of the seller.

Buco

Tout pour la musique was the name of Busato's retail stores so there's at least that connection to the Busato claim.

ChrisMartin

I noticed that on the label. Busato had two shops of that name, one at 140 Bd, de Ménilmontant, and then another at 122 rue Amelot. The phrase 'Tout pour la musique' just means 'everything for music', a phrase I have seen used by other music shops as a general description of the business, not as a trade mark. In the case of the label in the Curtil guitar it could be just that, as the name - A CURTIL - is in the larger type, so more likely the name of the business? That is one possibility. Or, as by the fifties Busato himself had become a distributor of instruments of all types made by sub-contractors and spent little or no time as a luthier, so maybe Curtil was in turn a retailer of Busato sourced stock and had permission to use that phrase above his shop? Also the letters T.S.F. are often seen in relation to music shops, but I will have to wait and see if any French readers can tell me what that means. Either way, it seems the name A. Curtil came down from Antoine and the business by the fifties would probably have been run by descendants of the family. There is no other evidence of any Curtil having worked as a 'luthier' for Busato, but it may well be that Busato was supplying the Curtil shop. If that is the case, by the mid-fifties Pierre Fontaine was making most of the basic model guitars for Busato, so this would more likely be one of those. Either way, it is not expensive, and certainly worth the price of an entry level Asian guitar. And ignore that YouTube demo, whoever is playing does not have the right picking technique to get the tone out of it; he could probably even kill a Busato too, I bet with the right strings and a bridge set-up that one can really shout.