First "Petite Bouche" ever

Bernie

Does anybody know who invented the "petite bouche' sound~hole, or/and when it first appeared ?
Some say that it all started on a Selmer guitar, others that it first appeared on a Busato...(??)
Thanks... Bernie

Bernie

The info comes from a 2014 french book named "1001 Guitares" (published by Flammarion ~ and with a foreword by J.F. Lalanne ~ ). This book has probably not been translated (possibly not a must !? ), but I thought I might get some information here bout the supposition that Busato had come out first with a "Petite Bouche"...?

Any idea ? Thanks.

Matteo

There's a thread about this on the French forum, Guitare Jazz Manouche. There are some suggestions but no real conclusion yet: Origine des petites bouches

Bob Holo

There was a luthier named Etienne LaPrevotte, from Marseilles, who worked for the Duke of Bordeaux in the 1830s. He used a Petit bouche, though his bracing was longitudinal, like a pre-war archtop. He doesn't get as much historical 'love' as Lacote & Panormo, but LaPrevotte may have served as an inspiration to a few types of guitares du jazz. ;-)

http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0130342

Bernie

Thanks Matteo for the info...Seems what you read is similar to a thread I'd read, started by the same person (under a different name) on a different forum (I was going to advise your thread to them when I got aware of it ~ funny ~)...
Still I'll check that out (a bit more info there yet)...

Bob Holo wrote: »

There was a luthier named Etienne LaPrevotte, from Marseilles, who worked for the Duke of Bordeaux in the 1830s. He used a Petit bouche, though his bracing was longitudinal, like a pre-war archtop. He doesn't get as much historical 'love' as Lacote & Panormo, but LaPrevotte may have served as an inspiration to a few types of guitares du jazz. ;-)
http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0130342

Thanks very much Bob, this is quite outstanding...
Didn't realize how relevant this may be till I clicked, a minute ago, on the link you had added...
Quite amazing I must say...
Cheers...
Bernie.

Bob Holo

Been working on a writeup for the site, about the genesis of the GJ guitar, but realistically, I'll never finish it ;-) because this lengthy beast covers only a few superficial features and it's already... "impolitely long and wandering" haha... So I'll just post what I have here, in this thread as it seems apropos. If it's interesting to anyone, I'm happy. If it causes anyone angst... well, these are just my observations, make of them what you will. If you enjoy them, I'm thrilled. If not... my apologies.

With those caveats in place, here's a loosely collected set of thoughts and observations as relates to the development of some features of what we now call GJ guitars:

When I started building these guitars, the only information I could find was that they were supposedly “Inspired by Neopolitan mandolins.” But really, I don't understand why that comparison is made. Pliages seem to be the only thing that Neopolitan Mandolins & Selmers have in common, and it was a feature particular to Selmers as most of the Italian and French GJ guitars had no pliages. But even if the pliage is used as a basis for comparison, the pliages of folded-top mandolins are very different than those found on Selmer guitars. The pliages of Selmers are more similar (though not identical) to those found on some Baroque instruments. If you widen the comparison beyond the Selmer guitar, there are other similarities between GJ & Baroque instruments. The diagonal deuxieme barre of many of the early Italian GJ guitars (but not Selmers) seems inspired by the asymmetrical designs of the French & Italian romantic guitars including Fabricatore, Lacote etal., but if you go back and look at the pre-Romantic guitars, you can see that as early as 1680, Stradivari used diagonal deuxieme barres in Baroque guitars (an example is in the Ashmolean museum). I haven't gone back farther than that, as my interest in the development of the GJ guitar is primarily functional, begins with the creation of the modern guitar, and is admittedly Euro-centric. Although there were guitars as early as the 13th century and in other parts of the world, they didn't bear much resemblance to what we think of as a GJ guitar. I draw the line at ~1650 which is approximately when Voboam began building and Stradivari was 5 or 6 years old.

The characteristic GJ guitar body shape – and this is just my conjecture – probably came from Friederich Schenk (b.~1800). Schenk inspired Mozzani and Mozzani inspired Maccaferri. Friederich Schenk made huge beautiful harp guitars with big fat bottoms and 'points' reminiscent of harps that seem to have been there to help hold the instrument on the lap, because harp guitars were heavy and were held with the neck pointing up at a rather extreme angle. Did Schenk originate the idea of the points? Maybe. Or perhaps he got the idea from decorative points on lutes made hundreds of years before. But whether Schenk originated these 'points' or not, here is where my conjecture about the origin of the GJ guitar shape comes in. I can tell you from experience that it is a huge pain in the backside to make good guitar molds, and it is known that Maccaferri followed Mozzani and that Mozzani made harp guitars in the style of Schenk. So my guess is that Maccaferri probably used some of Mozzani's molds when he was prototyping his guitars. If you look at the sides of a Schenk harp guitar, you can see that if you bend the area near the heel a little on a hot iron, you will wind up with a bottom-heavy guitar and a pointed cutout. The similarity in shape to a Selmer seems too coincidental to not be related. I've prototyped too many guitars to have any illusions about how it's done. You use the molds that you have, and you modify them or build freehand when necessary, because building a full set of molds for every experiment would be insane. Other builders, like Ramirez, were inspired by this aesthetic, and used it more-or-less exactly as Schenk did, but I'm guessing that Maccaferri used Mozzani's molds and modified the sides with a hot iron to achieve a smaller body with a defined cutout which allowed access to frets past the body joint. Perhaps he liked the unique aesthetic and built the first Selmer Maccaferri molds accordingly. Now... it's certainly possible that other builders, either known or obscure, played a role in the development. I am no historian - just a guy trying to put myself in the mind of the people who originated this style of instrument by making their influences my influences, and by so doing, to build with greater authenticity. But occam's razor in mind, my money is on Schenk-Mozzani-Maccaferri. Or at least, I think it's likely that Maccaferri played some part in it, whether it was a solo, combined, or concurrent invention.

The thing about history, is that when it's being made, it's just everyday life… sometimes boring, sometimes exciting... but just, life. Life isn't history until someone cleans it up and finds a common path through which a lot of data points can be fit, trims some details, elaborates on others, and creates a compelling narrative that fits a linear timeline within the context of other events. But in reality, invention is dirty, redundant, uncertain, and often stumbles backward and sideways as much as it does forward until something happens that is considered significant enough to point at as a seminal event or form. In Jazz Manouche, one important seminal point is the overlap of two events: 1.) Django Reinhardt going to a Stephane Grappely (later Grapelli) concert and inviting him to jam, and 2.) Mario Maccaferri convincing a young Django to play his guitars. Therefore, regardless of how and when the GJ guitar style was originated, it tends to be viewed through a window that looks backward and forward from the confluence of Django-Stephane-Mario in the early 1930's.

Anyway, here are three pictures for you.

1.) A picture of a ~1830 Schenk guitar at the Musical Instrument Museum in Berlin, showing the fat bottom and pointed feature.
2.) Mario Maccaferri playing on a Mozzani harp guitar showing how those points were used to settle the guitar on the player's lap. Note the body shape and size and cutout is modified from the Schenk, and is closer in size and shape to a Selmer-Maccaferri. For more information, visit www.harpguitars.net
3.) A picture of two guitars, both made in molds created from measurements of the body of an unmodified 500-series Selmer. Note the fat bottom and Schenk-like cutout. These guitars were made ~2012 (Mac) and ~2014 (Petit).

~200 years from Schenk forward to today
~200 years from Schenk back to Baroque
~80 years ago that Django met Stephane & Mario prototyped what would become the Selmer Maccaferri

Bernie

I found what you say very very interesting Bob, and deeply outstanding too I would say...
I don't know much about DJ guitars' history, but your points are very convincing in my opinion : seeing Maccaferri holding & playing a Mozzani harp guitar gives a lot of credit to your views. I trust and understand your experience in building guitars about the difficulty of making new molds for each new shape that's would be tested...And why you then believe in, or credit, the idea that Maccaferri probably used ~ or may very well have used ~ a Mozzani mold to start with : I am no builder nor luthier, but I have seen some molds and a few guitar makers at work, and it then really makes a lot of sense to me......

Thanks very much for this comment on this thread... I feel very honored by such a favor and I hope many people will read it... But still, I think you should as well start a specific thread with it, as it seems like very precious information to me (or very precious speculation at the very least)... It's worth it I think.., and even more could come out of it hopefully...

Bernie