Were Selmers really that good?

Phil

This is a very interesting topic. Makes me wonder how many Selmers there still are kicking around in Europe and what prices they sell for in Europe in comparrison to the prices that they are sold for at gypsyguitars.com
Is the general consensus that the prices at gypsyguitars.com are highly inflated or not?
It was sad to hear Bireli on his latest DVD saying he'd like a Selmer but can't afford one!

Cheers

Phil

gypsyjazzer

With the development of greater global communications via the Internet, I think you'll find the market for original Selmers and Maccaferris is now worldwide, and not different between America and Europe. The last one I saw for sale in Europe I believe went for 30,000 euros (approx. £21,000/$35,000).

With just about all the known instruments now in collectors hands rather than players, the value of these instruments is not really related to their suitability for playing on gigs. As has been said above, who would sensibly take one along to give a live performance playing in such an 'animated' and forceful style in an environment where temperature and humidity are likely to be subject to such wide variations?

Apparently, one Japanese owner of an original Selmer keeps his in a specially-constructed, temperature-controlled, air-conditioned cabinet in his living room - and why not?

And for a talking point - I've actually met the English owner of an original 1930's D-hole Maccaferri who told me his was discovered at a car-boot sale only a few years back, and purchased for something ridiculous like £20 by a friend of his. Although he agreed to buy it off his friend for a more realistic price of £1,500, it was still that 'dream purchase' we all keep our eyes open for.

Anyone else know of similar 'reliable' experiences? There must still be one or two examples still 'out there' waiting to be discovered.

I worked in a music shop during the 1960's in England, and as a result of Selmer importing and distributing some really terrible cheap 'starter level' guitars around that time under their brand name of "Selmer". Acoustic Selmer guitars had an awful reputation in the trade, and you couldn't give one away at that time. Everyone wanted American Gibsons, Fenders and Martins. I can remember Selmers being for sale in London for only a few hundred pounds during the 'swinging sixties', and still nobody wanted them, who played like a 1930's Django Reinhardt during the Beatles era?

max

This is an interesting subject and I´ll share a few personal thoughts:

I´ve played 4 selmers (2 petite bouches, 1 D hole, and 1 tenor) and
only one of the guitars were really good.

I´ve owned one Jaques favino (#511) but sold it as it sounded more
lika a banjo than anything else, and I couldn't´t afford a Restoration.

I´ve played maybe 4 - 6 more favinos (both son & father) and the majority of them were really good.

I´ve also played really good guitars by AJL, Busatto, Dupondt, Aylward, Park etc.

A lot of the prizing of selmers must be due to the fact that they are sought after as collectible "items" more than the "musical qualities" of the guitar itself.

I have a theory about this: A lot of guitars seems "to peak" about 30 years after their construction date. Maybe the pre 76 favinos not only sound so good cause they were built by Jaques, but also cause the tear and agening
of the instruments now have reached its peak, if you understand what I mean. Therefore a lot of the Selmers are now going over the hill and are fading.

Another aspect may be how much the instrument have been played. It is my belief that any instrument needs to be played to stay "alive".

Nowadays I noodle away on a gitane for gigs and a casteluccia in the couch. The cheap gitane sound and outplays my old Favino by numbers. That said, I do think that most favinos are truly great guitars. As are still a few Selmers and a lot of newlymade guitars.

In my opinion Selmers are not worth the prize for it´s musical abilities in general, but well worth the prize as collectors item. If I had knew about the coming upswing in Djangostyle twenty years back I would certainly have stocked a few good guitars for my senior days.

Of course this is only my personal thoughts and I may be totally wrong as often, but any comments is welcomed and interesting!

Keep swingin´

MichaelHorowitz

I have a theory about this: A lot of guitars seems "to peak" about 30 years after their construction date. Maybe the pre 76 favinos not only sound so good cause they were built by Jaques, but also cause the tear and agening
of the instruments now have reached its peak, if you understand what I mean. Therefore a lot of the Selmers are now going over the hill and are fading.

There's probably some truth to that. Selmer type guitars are so lightly constructed...they really don't stand the test of time. I hate to say this, but they're sort of disposable, very much like Flamenco guitars which are also very light.

Another aspect may be how much the instrument have been played. It is my belief that any instrument needs to be played to stay "alive".

Also very true....I think guys with huge collections should pay poor musicians to play their guitars!

Nowadays I noodle away on a gitane for gigs and a casteluccia in the couch. The cheap gitane sound and outplays my old Favino by numbers. That said, I do think that most favinos are truly great guitars. As are still a few Selmers and a lot of newlymade guitars.

The great irony of all this is that over the years Selmers have become boutique instruments carefully constructed by independent lutheirs (i.e. AJL, Park, Dunn, Favino, etc.) But the original Selmers were built on an assembly line in a factory...the same as today's Gitanes.

a

but there is a huge difference in tone between a gitane and something like a vielle reserve. like most guitars, the gitane sounds good when you play the low g on the low e string..everything else is sort of squashed sounding. on the dupont, every note resonates really well.

Djazzer

s

gypsyjazzer wrote:

With the development of greater global communications via the Internet, I think you'll find the market for original Selmers and Maccaferris is now worldwide, and not different between America and Europe. The last one I saw for sale in Europe I believe went for 30,000 euros (approx. £21,000/$35,000).

With just about all the known instruments now in collectors hands rather than players, the value of these instruments is not really related to their suitability for playing on gigs. As has been said above, who would sensibly take one along to give a live performance playing in such an 'animated' and forceful style in an environment where temperature and humidity are likely to be subject to such wide variations?

Apparently, one Japanese owner of an original Selmer keeps his in a specially-constructed, temperature-controlled, air-conditioned cabinet in his living room - and why not?

And for a talking point - I've actually met the English owner of an original 1930's D-hole Maccaferri who told me his was discovered at a car-boot sale only a few years back, and purchased for something ridiculous like £20 by a friend of his. Although he agreed to buy it off his friend for a more realistic price of £1,500, it was still that 'dream purchase' we all keep our eyes open for.

Anyone else know of similar 'reliable' experiences? There must still be one or two examples still 'out there' waiting to be discovered.

I worked in a music shop during the 1960's in England, and as a result of Selmer importing and distributing some really terrible cheap 'starter level' guitars around that time under their brand name of "Selmer". Acoustic Selmer guitars had an awful reputation in the trade, and you couldn't give one away at that time. Everyone wanted American Gibsons, Fenders and Martins. I can remember Selmers being for sale in London for only a few hundred pounds during the 'swinging sixties', and still nobody wanted them, who played like a 1930's Django Reinhardt during the Beatles era?

max

a! You are absolutely right.. I agree.

The gitane can not really be compared to a dupondt or a favino.
But it´s awsome for it´s prize.

a

yeah, the gitane is awesome for the price...it's definitely better sounding than most american guitars imo. that said, playing a vielle is like putting on a pair of glasses for the first time. i think it has a lot to do with the really old tone wood. i've tried guitars by some of the most renowned luthiers, the selmac design is pretty much the same all around, but compared to the vielle reserve, most of them sound closer to the gitane. i wish there was a way to get that sound for cheap.

Bob Holo

Let me add a little qualifier to the mix - as regards Selmer copies.

I've seen a lot of "Exact Selmer" copies... I even own one - of a limited edition made on the 50th eve of Django's death... etc... now that I'm building these guitars I realize it is not an exact copy - nor are any of these others (the ones I've seen at any rate) The necks are smaller - the necks are reinforced differently - the necks have truss rods - the bodies are made of solid wood, not laminates - the lining is kerfed mahogany - not solid Cedar (was it Cedar or Baswood on Selmers?) - the tops are Spruce, but mostly Sitka - not the old growth European (likely Alsatian?) spruce of Selmers - the finish is polymer and much thicker - the bracing patterns are beefed up under the fingerboard - the neck blocks are a different size - the soundboards are arched - not bent 6 degrees at the pliage as later Selmers were - the neck joints are one piece or scarf jointed, not the 3-sided tenon like Selmers... and those are just the differences that come to mind... I look at these "exact" Selmer copies and laugh. Any one of the above changes could potentially impact the sound of the guitar - put them all together and you have something that may be a good guitar - but is definitely NOT a Selmer reproduction.

So - for the record - does anyone know a luthier that really does an "Exact" Selmer? I've heard that Leo Eimers has built a few and that they were darned nice guitars (Didn't Stochelo play one at Samois this year?)

Is the Dupont Reserve an exact Selmer copy? I've played two of them and thought they were both nice, but IIRC, the necks were solid (not tenoned) and were not very big or chunky - which would tend to indicate there was some "modernization" of the design.

Elliot

I believe the only departure the Manouche Modele Jazz has from the original Selmer plan is a truss rod, a thin poly finish, a slight modification of the original U shaped neck to a C, (and no ivory tuning pegs.) Beyond that, you'd probably have to ask them. They also have an authentic gypsy that leaves a bit of DNA on each one, but I think you'd have to check the details of that as well.