American lead guitarists

AndrewUlle

I think what I'm aiming at is true for any style, whether in the jazz world, or within Rock/Blues. Until GJ, I was never a fan of jazz besides some archaic forms - stride piano (Fats Waller) or piano jazz trio (Oscar Peterson, Vince Guaraldi). Bebop and the more avant-garde, discordant styles were never my thing. Of course I still appreciated and respected those players for their skill. So really, the style of the player is not my concern here; it was the lack of musicality or artistry in the construction of the 2nd chorus and beyond, when the variations on the melody and theme start to expand the available palette of notes, as expected. I understand that is how improvisation works, even if I can't do it myself.

But where I see the weakness, at least in the particular players I happened upon the other day, was that their solos seemed to be slapped together in the way Victor Borge (look him up if you're not familiar) used to tear up sheet music and randomly reassemble it in his comedy concerts. It would be like if you were playing a typical I-IV-V rock song, and for your solo you just played some random pentatonic scales at various positions on the neck. There should be some discernible path for your solo, right? A starting point and an endpoint with some intelligent route between? While It certainly need not be predictable, it should make sense, in my opinion.

NylonDave

Nice thoughts Russell !

As I reflect on them the studies of spontaneous creolisation in both Aural and Sign Languages occur to me.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/507232/pdf



The classical ideas that discrete races are born with intrinsic qualities and language are, in most parts of the word, being amended by those with respect for scientific study. A completely consistant language can emerge spontaneously when not ceded.

Surely this is precisely what happened when Django was organising his ideas about music.

I note that of my friends who are bi-lingual (and whom I envy) those who are most prone to pratfalls and for whom the idiom is most difficult are those who have submitted themselves to teacher training as English language teachers. They are far too concerned with saying things correctly. It is really difficult, impossible really, to say things correctly ( unless like the Queen we learn to speak entirely without emotion ) instead we must invest ourselves and say things well if we may. And if that means being found risible by those who would glory in received ideas then so be it, they may be beyond help.

Further I also wonder if the studies on the confusion of bilingual exponents perhaps crop their candidates from those who are entering advanced formal studies...... perhaps trying to be correct and placing undue concern an external authority and orthodoxy may be the barrier to spontaneity and not a particular problem with choosing register as studies have suggested.

Famously Handel was known to garble English German and Italian 'horribly', yet this is precisely the proportion of mixology that makes his music sublime. No one has ever stolen quite so confidently as Handel.

I myself am more and more drawn to the folk music I heard around the house as a child. And when I hear it mirrored by either Gershwin or Bill Monroe (Summertime and Wayfaring Stranger respectively) I feel nothing but joy and pride. But I also note that I hear the same harmony and gestures in much music from the African continent and that ships once sailed to seed music here in the north from there.

And this is where I find Buco so insightful. America need not seek to recreate a golden age by resting on the laurels of the long dead at the behest of the reactionary. Instead it will notice in it's own good time that it has always been in a golden age of one sort or another and will, as always, make a melange of all of the people and cultures that it may absorb for the world and it's own to enjoy.

This last may not be apparent at the first google search but that need not worry us. In the real world, as always, there will be a great many working hard to create and share spontaneous new languages uncaring of periods of social and cultural retrenchment.

I will concede that they probably wont find them in books......or in the sermonising of people who, like me, despite having no particular theocratic feeling, find themselves leaning against the altar and mirroring the tone which beguiled them as children and appals them somewhat as adults.

D.

ChrisMartin

At risk of repeating what has been said before, and I seem to remember the same people making the same comments when this came up last year, some people misinterpret 'different' to mean 'inferior' when I don't think that was what Andrew intended in the first post. I am English but have lived in Australia for 15 years. I worked in France for a year too some time ago. I was first exposed to Gypsy Jazz, or specifically Django, as a kid when my dad used to play a lot of jazz records at home, but only became aware it was still a living thing when the film 'Django Legacy' was shown on British TV. That was about 1991 I think and by coincidence I first saw Babik live in Nimes and Ian Cruikshank and Gary Potter in London that same year. I have been following as many of the current players as I can wherever they are from ever since. I mention all the above just to put my listening experience into some perspective. This is not about national borders or having a go at American players, but what Andrew has referred to in America equally applies in most other countries. I hear it too here in Australia, and as Wim says elsewhere there are of course many European players who fit Andrew's description too. Just because these players do not sound 'authentic' does not make them better or worse than any Gypsy players, and I suspect Denis has described the reasons best; one would have to immerse one's self into the Gypsy way of life to understand it any closer than we can just by listening. I repeat, I am NOT criticising these players and it is NOT just applicable to America although in a country that has such a rich history of top guitarists from all styles the standards are going to be very high. In the end it is up to all of us to choose what we listen too, but that does not mean the rest is in any way inferior. I bet right now there is a Dutch or Belgian player who is bemoaning the fact the locals do not sound like Hendrix, Christian, Paul, Montgomery, Vaughan or whoever.

ChrisMartin

scot wrote: »

Chris and I will just have to agree to disagree - I have the idea that he does not like American guitarists because they are Americans and I do like nearly all of them in spite of this serious shortcoming

Not at all, outside of the gypsy style, most of my guitar heroes have been American.

Chris - do you actually have a Lotus/Caterham Super 7 per your avatar? Coolest car ever! Didn't you work in F1?

Not a Lotus, it is an Arkley, for the full story see the link below, and yes I worked on racecars including building Indycars before 15 years in F1.

http://www.velocetoday.com/correspondents-cars-from-arkley-to-australia-to-arkley/

Bob Holo

When a good player who wasn’t raised in a gypsy enclave adopts this music, he typically spends the first few years trying to suppress his non-gypsy influences in order to meet the music on its own terms. Then he typically spends the next few years trying to bring those influences back, but in a way that comprehends and respects the style. Likely the best way I’ve heard this phenomenon summarized came frome Stephane Wrembel who said: “Don’t live in the shadow of Django – live in the light of Django.”

But it isn’t just in GJ that this is the case. I grew up in the Trad Jazz community. A lot of modern jazz artists discover Louis or Bix or Red or Tram or whomever, and flush with their “new” discovery, they go on stage at a festival or concert with a Trad band and are perplexed when they get their ever-lovin’ a** handed to them by “such a simple” form of music which they initially thought was nothing more than a concatennation of a few signature licks that they could just “pick up on the side.”

The ones who find a deep respect for the music (Trad / GJ, roots, whatever), will dive into it and go through these same stages. I watched Wynton Marsalis go through this in the 80’s with Trad Jazz. Early on he said some things about Louis’ music that weren’t by any means dismissive or disrespectful, but revealed that he thought it was a “simpler” form of jazz. A lot of modern jazz players have that misconception because they underestimate the importance of the nuance, and overestimate the importance of dissonance. But the more Trad Jazz that Wynton played, the more subtle beauty he discovered in it. Now he refers to jazz as a bifurcated body of knowledge that he calls: “Old Testament” and “New Testament”. Lol… I love his music – have tons of his records – have seen him live at least a dozen times – most recently a few months ago in a L.C.J.O. concert which he laid out based on the “New/Old Testament” theme. I would not by any means call him a Trad player. But he plays jazz in a way that demonstrates his genuine love and respect for Trad. And when he puts aside the trills and screeches and tricks that audiences demand of him – and just plays some genuine “down-home” Trad, it is beautiful thing to behold – though not entirely traditional.

dennis

Ultimately, I'm personally more concerned with good musicianship and good sound. To me that's what the very best of any style do. It's certainly what Django did.

Gypsies in western Europe have a specific way of playing certain things, especially rhythm guitar, that was passed down directly from Django's era.

I have told this story many times, but when I go to Gypsy camps, I always meet these guys who would tell me that they don't play music at all , but then they would grab a guitar, and play rhythm guitar. They know maybe only one song (and sometimes not even the right chords), but holy cow, the sound they have , is the sound that so many non-gypsies spend years and tons of money trying to learn. These Gypsy "non-musicians" just have it! I ve also seen a lot of young Gypsy kids who pick up the guitar and are in the first year or two, and it's the same thing, the sound is jut there!

But that's just a sound issue, and while it's important (and subjective), there are far more important things out there.

Most Gypsy musicians learn in a very specific way that most non-Gypsies refuse to believe. I 've attended workshops by Bireli and Stochelo where attendees are asking them questions like "how to play straight version of la pompe", words like that mean absolutely nothing to them. Then someone would ask something about tritone substitution or something, these are absolutely meaningless terms to them.

I could write an entire chapter about the learning process ( I actually have on my website), but suffice to say, it's just a completely different thought process.

However, it is not necessarily a superior way of learning. In fact, there are many many many problems that come from their way of learning.

The best musicians of any style take the best elements of what they hear and understand right away how to achieve the sound they want to hear, and they work towards that goal.

Russell Letson

We recently binge-watched the Jazz series and were struck at Marsalis' comments--how articulate he was in both his understanding and appreciation of it, particularly of Armstrong's art. It confirmed a suspicion that I've formed from decades of observing temporal or cultural "outsiders" who manage to get inside a tradition--that a blue person can play the whites (or a young guy can play old tunes), and that it involves both listening and technical mastery.

It might be a bit easier to grow up inside the tradition, but it's also possible to come in from the outside and give yourself to it. (And remember how many black musicians were influenced by Jimmie Rodgers. The music goes round and round.)

dennis

I have one more anecdote to share.

A few years ago, I was in Holland, with members of the Rosenberg family. I mentioned to them that I was gonna go visit my friends in the east of France from Dorado Schmitt / Hono Winterstein's families immediately after.

One of them asked me what I thought about the eastern French way of playing Gypsy Jazz. I told them that I liked it, he immediately replied that he didn't like it because it was too sloppy, and therefore too Gypsy. It's true that the eastern French Gypsies tend to be more risky in their playing and use lots of flashy effects. I found that amusing that a Gypsy would tell me that a Gypsy sounded too Gypsy!

Then I went to visit my friends in the east of France, I told them that I had just been in Holland with the Rosenberg family. One of them asked me what I thought of the Dutch Gypsies way of playing. As always, I replied I enjoyed it very much. He then told me to never ever play like them, because they played too technically perfect and clean, therefore , they didn't play with Gypsy passion!!!!

I will never forget these moments hahaha

So it goes back to my very first reply to this thread: what do people mean by Gypsy Jazz?

NylonDave

Another anecdote then if no one minds.

I had Japanese girl as a neighbour and she was kind enough to give me some really good 'sushi' rice from back home and watched over me as I steamed it in a plain aluminium pot. There was nothing to the recipe but like all recipes there were small things which might never be written down but which made a huge difference.

I particurly liked her answer to the question, 'If it is different every time how will I know when it is ready ?'.

'When it smells yummy !'

remind me of the question 'how will I know when the pastas ready ?'

'Taste it.'

Any way I had made a curry (are all musicians wannabee Michelin Chefs ?) and she was very polite and (I flatter myself) with what seemed like genuine surprise said.

'Its good !
So many ingredients yet it tastes of one thing.'

And that stays with me too.

So the tricks to cooking are 1.) stand nearby someone doing it right and watch, or better still stand in front of them while they bully you. and 2.)Trust your senses and use them and always be prepared to allow them and common sense overrule prescriptive recipes.

Oh and a third thing, when in doubt or keen to impress add fist sized knob of butter.

I agree with Dennis, musicianship is like butter.

Lastly here in Scotland there are a million households with a million sacred and 'correct' variations on mince and potatoes. Roughly twenty percent are good to great and another sixty are pretty good. The other twenty percent are simply bad at cooking. But the next generation of that hapless twenty might perfect the recipe or just be more patient and attentive cooks.

Oddly enough quite a lot of the last twenty percent work in catering !!! Maybe because in three quarters of the households the recipe, although notionally still unique and a family tradition hasn't been used since grandma was sent away. So the shoddier caterers trade on nostalgia and skimp on ingredients and preparation time. They may add too many cheap spices or artlessly throw in stuff that is in the fridge needing used up but which really isn't helping. Why they'll even sometimes add extra butter though more commonly the less wonderful and completely characterless palm nut kernel oil called showmanship.



D.

Bob Holo

dennis wrote: »

So it goes back to my very first reply to this thread: what do people mean by Gypsy Jazz?

Haha, I feel a bit like Justice Potter Stewart when he was serving on the US Supreme court and was asked for his definition of obscenity. He said something like: "I don't know if I can define it, but I know it when I see it."

Though it's probably worthwhile noting that my personal definition of it grows in direct proportion to my knowledge of it and time spent around it and the people who play it. That's probably a good thing.

By the way - thanks again Dennis - for putting the Stochelo stuff into a modern format. I'm not much closer to mastering it ;-) but now I can continue to slowly stumble forward toward it without the aid of an external DVD drive hanging off a dongle hanging off my Cloud-enabled Touchscreen Ultrabook, haha.