Upright Bass or Rhythm Guitar - Who Locks The Beat?

wim

I guess it's primarily opinion based. When I play rhythm guitar I'm listening to the bassist for the pulse/tempo, and the notes colours the soloist uses - which can influence the chord voicings I'll choose. So there's not messy stuff in the harmony. I get a lot of compliments on my rhythm playing, but that could just be people's way of kindly saying "you're not a good lead player"

I don't really think of the rhythm guitarist as playing the role of a drummer at all, though that's something we heard said often.

Jim Kaznosky

Funny. I think of the rhythm guitar player being the drummer quite a bit. With the regular bass player I play with, it's truly a partnership. There's a lot of non-verbal communication that's going on with regards to dynamics, based on what the song and vibe is from the soloist or singer so we have to be hyper aware of what is happening. When there's a sub bassist, I'm the boss until I feel that he or she gets the groove we try to create. In a jam, I leave it up to who's leading the jam.

Jazzaferri

Ye sit is the responsibility of the guitar player(s) to connect with the bass player and form a solid rhythmic pulse that the soloists/vocalists can lock into to make a unified statement. One could also restate that to say it's the bass players responsibility etc etc.

If one person isn't in synch it isn't great if the rhythm section isn't in synch its gonna be bad. You can put whipped cream on top of dog poo but.....

Bones

TB, it is definitely everyone's responsibility to try to keep good time. If everyone is pretty good at it small fluctuations can be easily overcome as long as the groove is basically tight but if one or more people are not able to keep it together it just breaks down.

Conversely, when it is grooving it is a wonderful thing to be in the rhythm section. :-) So fun.

Lango-Django

I play in a trio of bass, gtr/bjo and clt/sax. Over the years the bass player and I have become a solid unit. Not that we have perfect time, we don't! But we complement each other and the leader's music well and it's always a joy playing together.

Every now and then, a real good bass player comes and sits in and we can just feel the tension... the guy has great chops but he's always pushing the beat.

Our clt/sax guy Brian has a couple of interesting things that he does with the rhythm that I've never heard anybody else do... well, except Louis Armstrong, which is where he learned this first trick, namely...

... every now and then in the course of his solo, he'll deliberately play quarter note phrases right in rhythmic unison with the rhythm section. Fun and exciting and adds to that "locked in" feeling.

Brian's other trick happened by accident: he always used to accuse us of speeding up during our solos on slower tempo numbers, so he started doing this!

But we liked it, even though we denied speeding up! So at our urging he uses this trick pretty regularly for ballads...

--- after the guitar and/or bass solos, when the sax comes back for the final chorus, the music will stop and then he will very ostentatiously start playing the head at a deliberately slower tempo!

Sounds crazy but it works and gives the music a nice jolt of intensity. He will use this on tunes like Body and Soul or Tickle Toe.

*****

Somebody once observed that the most fun in jazz is playing a rhythm section that gets along well... and the least fun in jazz is the opposite!

I've gotta say that usually I can find some way to get along with a bass player, but drummers? Oy vey!

The ones I've actually enjoyed playing with are rare... musical narcissists, I call them. They don't listen to anybody and consider it their job to "drive the band"... fuck you, drum boy, stay in the back seat, you ain't drivin' shit!

But now I'm talking about Dixieland jazz, not GJ... as a musical genre, GJ has its own pitfalls, but not having any drummers is one of its greatest strokes of genius!

Bones

TB, I guess the real question that needs to be asked is what is happening in your combo exactly? Speeding up, slowing down, not tight with each other?

On a personal level. when you practice try putting someone on the volume knob on the metronome and start playing rhythm. Keep the metronome going but have them turn the volume off for a short bit then back on and see how far off you have gotten. Do you tend to speed up or slow down? If so try it again. It's hard to have perfect time but keep at it and have fun with it. Trust me everyone needs to be able to keep good time, even the soloist.

t-bird

Bones wrote: »

TB, I guess the real question that needs to be asked is what is happening in your combo exactly? Speeding up, slowing down, not tight with each other?

At this point, it's less of a combo and more of an invite-only jam. Personally, I want to show up and do my part to make sure everyone is enjoying themselves and the songs sound good.

Last year I started a thread asking how to play quieter rhythm. I got some great feedback and went to work. I feel now I can bring a solid pompe with good dynamics to a rehearsal or jam. My next step is working on tempo in a group situation.

Jazzaferri

If the whole band isn't in the groove, everyone listening to the others and being in the whole, I don't usually stay. Waste of time IMO....rather go practice.

I don't like playing with egotistical people who want to drive or control. In the words of Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock, you cant play music and have an ego.

Bones

TB, oh ok, yeah jams are tough. All the more reason that everyone really needs to practice good time. I know easier said than done but don't really know any magic solution. I guess if some folks really aren't in the groove....well not sure what to do about that. Keep practicing and get really solid and maybe everyone will just lock in with you??? Do the metronome thing for practice. But also it's good to pick recordings that you like at a reasonable tempo and jam with them. If you can hang with the pros and keep it swinging and grooving that's great practice IMHO and fun too.

wim

Jazzaferri wrote: »

I don't like playing with egotistical people who want to drive or control. In the words of Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock, you cant play music and have an ego.

And what about Django .. ?