the same chord shape-different musical contexts

steffo

stuart wrote: »

...
For those as baffled by theory as Django was, you can get to the same place
...

I think he was a real professional regarding harmony of the "common practice period". As a very young guitar-banjo player he accompanied a whole lot of "light classic", operette, valse, march, Italian folk, musette, Hungarian etc. musics. He was in demand, a bright and quick, intuitive "session player".

He knew about Flamenco, Debussy and Bach. Then Jazz, of course.

Jazzaferri

that's it @Buco that's it exactly.

Shemi

stuart wrote: »

Maybe but he probably couldn't name any chords

I've always assumed he probably had perfect pitch and could relate those sounds to the fretboard.

A friend of mine taught a kid who was super high intellect and he had taught himself to recognise the sound of notes relative to the frets on the guitar and not by letter name. I've never come across that before but it's fascinating. I also find synaesthesia really interesting after studying Messiaen. Very rarely people even experience a taste instead of colour!

crookedpinky

Having played with two excellent gypsy players extensively I know that they don't have much to do with theory. In fact some times they don't even know the names of the songs they're playing. I found it funny when I would ask what they were playing and they would simply reply "Django tune"...to everything they played. Having said that I think they are exceptional; natural musicians and have the knack of knowing what to play based on what they hear. I have never asked them how they learned but I suspect it was not from a deep understanding of the theory at an intellectual level but watching. listening and learning from those around them. I'm not sure what that contributes to this discussion but there you go.

Buco

stuart wrote: »

Maybe but he probably couldn't name any chords

That would be hard to think that he could function as a working musician and not be able to communicate at the most basic level.

I played music for years without knowing what the beat and bar was, I could count in my own uneducated way, knew nothing about the scales, probably knew more about astrophysics than tritone substitutions, but still knew the note names and chord names because without that there just wasn't a way to play with others, form a band etc...

I'd guess Django knew a touch more than that in a conventional theory sense.

ConorF

crookedpinky wrote: »

Having played with two excellent gypsy players extensively I know that they don't have much to do with theory. In fact some times they don't even know the names of the songs they're playing. I found it funny when I would ask what they were playing and they would simply reply "Django tune"...to everything they played. Having said that I think they are exceptional; natural musicians and have the knack of knowing what to play based on what they hear. I have never asked them how they learned but I suspect it was not from a deep understanding of the theory at an intellectual level but watching. listening and learning from those around them. I'm not sure what that contributes to this discussion but there you go.

I had a similar experience Alan and had to hum the melody when talking about a tune to a famous player...

crookedpinky

Brilliant Conor. I'm not big on theory but at least I know what the tunes are called - apart from the Swings - 39,42 etc. - for some reason I never remember what's what.

NylonDave

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

Russell Letson

That is a rabbit hole I advise against exploring. (If you don't believe me, read through the Talk page of that Wikipedia entry.)

Jim Kaznosky

stuart wrote: »

Buco wrote: »

stuart wrote: »

Maybe but he probably couldn't name any chords

That would be hard to think that he could function as a working musician and not be able to communicate at the most basic level.

I played music for years without knowing what the beat and bar was, I could count in my own uneducated way, knew nothing about the scales, probably knew more about astrophysics than tritone substitutions, but still knew the note names and chord names because without that there just wasn't a way to play with others, form a band etc...

I'd guess Django knew a touch more than that in a conventional theory sense.

Paulus Schaefer doesn't know the names of chords, I've been in workshops with him where he has asked us the names of really simple chords. I read an interview once with Bireli where he was asked what he plays over a dominant chord and his answer was, 'what's a dominant chord?'

Yep. He whistled the tune when he would show us a concept.