Looking for samples of dry rhythm with an upstroke

Buco

Oh yeah, good one. He even goes into detail about exactly that, the elusive ornamental upstroke.
That whole course is excellent.

dennis

Lol, that velcro was there just to put my audio technica mic. It was not to improve the sound or anything; I was just too lazy to remove it.

As far as the upstroke style is concerned, there are actually many ways to do it with quite a difference in each style. I wrote some article on it that Michael published here some years ago.

Pompier

dennis wrote: »

I wrote some article on it that Michael published here some years ago.

That would be djangobooks.com/blog/the-secrets-of-authentic-gypsy-jazz-rhythm/

Very helpful! Thanks, Denis.

Buco

@Pompier I somehow missed that Anniversary video the first time.
The thing about the upstroke effect is that I think this is something that will simply find it's way into your playing after you've done it for a few years. At least that was the case with me. But the interesting thing is once I heard it in my playing, I actually try to avoid it.
I avoid saying this because it's such popular effect, with people even going as far as wanting to try to learn this before they learned the actual rhythm playing, but a lot of times the rhythm sounds better without it. Even on that Anniversary video, as good and tight and as swinging these guys are, the upstroke rake is actually distracting to me.
It's kinda like a side effect and not always a desirable one, sometimes it sounds like sawing.
Sort of like: playing this rhythm over extended period of time may cause a wide range of side effects including but not limited to; insomnia, upstroke rake, blurred vision, fatigue and drowsiness (not saying anything about bedroom performance).

Pompier

I'll go out on a limb and say that in the kind of rhythm that Dorado Schmitt plays the upstroke seems to be more important for helping create a peculiar rhythmic pocket of the downstroke that follows than for its own sound. For myself, when playing with people I only use an upstroke at slower tempos. I would guess that anyone who's not a fairly advanced rhythm player has a much better chance of playing good rhythm without an upstroke. I find it surprising that few instructional videos encourage learners to play with downstrokes only. It's too bad that Wrembel's playalongs aren't easily available anymore. That's a good example of rhythm playing with no upstroke it all.

Buco

Try this for Wrembel's tracks
http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/91784/#Comment_91784

I listened to some of Dorado's rhythm playing. Yeah, a difference between his sound when doing the upstroke and the young Parisian guys is that Dorado is sounding 2 and 4 so the upstroke rake will also include more notes than just a percussive effect. So that would be closer to what the old school Hot Club sounded like as there was no dry 2 and 4 style in those days.
Some people call them muted and I think that is very inaccurate and misleading because if you have your fingers placed to form a chord it's a different sound than if you just cover the strings with your hand and strike strings. When your fingers are forming a chord, even if you're not sounding any notes, something like "ghost chord" might be a better term. Or just "dry". But never muted.

Pompier

Thanks, I do have those tracks. I just wish they were widely available.

By coincidence, I was just listening to Yaakov Hoter's new video today, where he emphasizes the difference between "semi-muted" strings, which sound differently depending on the chord, and muted strings, which sound the same. But muted strings can sound differently too, not depending on the specific notes but rather on how you press them down. I must admit the modern dry 2-4 stroke is still a bit of a mystery to me. I haven't quite figured out yet how to make that clean hi-hatty sound.

Bones

Buco, I think I've heard that called 'half-muted'. I call it 'damped'. I think it is a difference in how tightly you grip the chord even when playing the 1 and 3. Light grip.

bohemewarbler

Getting a great upstroke on rhythm guitar, such as can be heard in the latest #607 Selmer Anniversary Songs CD, is no piece of cake. And it might never come. Luckily, IMHO, one can sound great without having an upstroke, even if one is the only rhythm player supporting the soloist.

Here is the Thomas Baggerman Trio performing "Le Weekend" at Samois sur Seine. I think Matt Baggerman does a terrific job handling rhythm with just downstrokes. The tune has a long introduction, so the rhythm groove doesn't start until 0.50.

Buco

I watched this video several times since yesterday. They are great and the song is beautiful. I suppose it's their original? Great synergy between them and how they pay attention to dynamics is a rare thing in this world of music.

Yeah @Bones damped is good too. I just don't like even the mention of muted because I've seen people just starting to learn the craft taking the meaning too much to heart and it ends up sounding not good. But they hear "muted" thrown around so that's what they do. It ends up completely DOA. When you listen to the people who do it well, 2 and 4 are still in a way musical.

Like Max above, it sounds great. So relaxed, as Bones said always a light grip. I can't tell if his left hand is doing any pomping on 2 and 4, it looks more like he's releasing the grip. But there's still probably a slight bit of a pressure on the chord.

Anybody can try this for themselves:
1 play a chord, make it ring loud
and then
2 release just enough until there's no sounding notes, hit the strings like you'd do on 2 and 4
and then
3 release until your fingers are just about to leave the fretboard and hit the strings
and then
4 just cover the strings with your hand at the same position and hit the strings.
Each time you'll hear a different quality to the sound, even between steps 2 and 3 which is the most critical and where people make a mistake.

But yeah, obviously Max is playing amazing sounding rhythm guitar. Shows that the upstroke is unessential to the overall sound, there's too much emphasis on it.