We can’t possibly play music without some iconic version in our head.

bopster

It comes up over and over again: Real book players in that have no aural guide via a recorded version, have difficulty making meaningful music. I realized this was true meeting folks playing from charts, “self taught” horn players playing things by ear (but not the melody), and beginners just trying to “make the changes” when in a jam session taking a solo.

I realize these are all approaches that I see leading a jam session. We must point people to recordings that give the melody clearly, or give the iconic version. These are what inspired us to start playing and will do so for those who contine to study.

The picture I included is a rare recording (not in the sense of availability, but the nelodies are clear, and played in our genre) in that it is a recent album that gives us the songs in our style. Otherwise we must look to other singers, also because the lyrics certainly help me with song form and meaning.

Anyone else feeling this way?

bopster

In fact, maybe a list of the iconic versions of tunes is out there, or should be made. Waller, Armstrong, Crosby, Teagarden, Etc...

Buco

Just a couple of days ago at DiJ, Sebastien (I think it was him) said that if he's learning a new song and is unfamiliar with the melody he'll either look for early recording where the melody is clearly played or a music sheet as an alternative.
@Jazzaferri says often, something like "you have to be able to whistle, sing or hum the melody before you can follow the changes" and for a long time I wasn't sure what he was talking about until I realized how many people in jams play the songs regularly without being familiar with the melody.
If I don't know the song, I usually look for a vocal version by singers who don't embellish the melody too much, like Ella F, Frank S and the album you referenced above with Bireli and Sara Lazarus is fantastic also.
But yeah, if a player is improvising without being familiar with the original melody, it's like the first rule of improvisation is broken which is to build upon the melody.

Jim Kaznosky

Of course. This is a must. Some of the changes in the jazz manouche version of these tunes are different as well. We need a Dick Hyman type of book for some of the tunes with a source listing of recordings.

vanmalmsteen

So true,
Without the melody there is no song !

Russell Letson

I'm surprised that this isn't obvious to anyone who wants to make music--and not just the "know the actual melody" part. Operating within a genre/tradition/convention-set requires familiarity with the tradition-as-practiced, whether it's music or writing or painting.

I'm familiar with a similar situation in fiction writing (where my wife has both practiced and taught): students want to write stories but either have read only within a very narrow range (just science fiction or fantasy or horror), or get their ideas about narrative from movies and TV, or just want to "express themselves" and "be a writer." They resist the idea that if they want to write, they have to also read, and read with some attention to how the texts work.

Is it possible that some jammers (because I can't imagine performers operating at this level) know "Lady Be Good" or "Dinah" or "Honeysuckle Rose" primarily as chord sequences over which to run arpeggios?

"Hey--you mean 'I've Got Rhythm' has words?"

PapsPier

Russel, I definitely saw players who can play solos but do not know the melody. The result might not be bad but I have the same feeling as you, that something is missing, some meaning.

That is why when I put together the website about the war recordings of Django, I decided to add the lyrics of all the tunes: even if the lyrics were added a posteriori, it is often easier for me to follow the chart through the lyrics rather than visualising mentally the chart.

bopster

PapsPier - lyrics get you through songs with non traditional song forms. “It’s All Right With Me” and others would find me getting lost without hearing the words in my head.

Russell Letson

Paps--I've heard them, too, and what's missing is a connection with the actual tune at hand, as distinct from the chord progression.

Familiarity with lyrics is a somewhat different matter. As a purely practical matter (and as a Word Guy), I find that they help me keep track of where I am in a structure, especially if the structure departs from the utterly familiar (AABA 32-bar/blues/rhythm changes, etc.). One of the challenges I had with getting through a couple spots in "Black Orpheus"--the melody of which I knew pretty well--was that I didn't have lyrics to serve as guideposts. I had to fall back on brute-force repetition and thinking about the structure to engrave it in my brain. And thinking about structure (as distinct from being aware of it) while playing is one of the things that drop me out of playing and invite mistakes.

And besides, many of the standards that worked their way into the Hot Club tradition have wonderful lyrics that are pleasures in themselves--Larry Hart, Ira Gershwin, Dorothy Fields, Irving Berlin, Johnny Mercer, Yip Harberg, Hoagy Carmichael, Gus Kahn, Frank Loesser, Cole Porter. . . .

Lango-Django

Yeah.

Kalmar and Ruby... Waller and Razaf...

Jazzaferri

I fins with a number of the older tunes, the original changes have been reharmed, sub'd or just mistakenly done that the changes sometimes make no sense as far as the melody goes anymore (regardless of how cool they are)....or at least to my old ear/brain

For me, I know I own the song, when I can play the rhythm/changes while singing without thinking about either...just grooving along so to speak.