Simplifying changes

Twang

I agree with all of the above but it’s definitely true that you could solo through whole sections of some songs just focusing on the key centre. Its just another way of coming at it I suppose.

Twang

I would add that I’ve some recordings of Buco and whatever approach he’s taking, its working!

Buco

Thanks man :)

I'll try to record a take. Like I said doing that, playing in the key, isn't going to outline the chord tones. The biggest downside is that it doesn't create tension and release. But you can get away with it. And I do think that it happens more than you'd think in jazz world, at least my ears tell me so.

@Twang when you said you just want to get out there (physically or virtually...) and play now, that was exactly my thinking when I switched to this kind of playing. My playing just wasn't there to chase the changes. I'd try and struggle and would just get frustrated. It's not fun feeling to look forward to or go home with, just the opposite.

After I switched to this hack, I started having fun and actually heard for the first time "hey check Buco out!". It also thought me that more important part to convey the style is right hand picking and small phrasing intricacies then note choices. I'm not saying I'm great at it, good occasionally. At home I continued working and slowly chipping away at everything else. The next step for me to start getting away from just staying in the key, was including dom arps. Because in these swing era tunes minor II and VI chords would often become dominant 7. So I tried to target those with licks or arps outlining major 3rd and dominant 7th.

Twang

Yeah it’s like you found a springboard that got you playing and finally feeling good about what you were doing. This is important but maybe it’s a personal thing more about confidence than anything else? Chords, key centres, licks, the melody? Whatever blows your skirt up and gets you playing!

Then you can relax a bit and spend the rest of your life getting better.

i’m not quite there yet but I can feel it coming

Buco

You're exactly right.

Bones

Yes I think that is true. Whatever pathway to having fun will make you want to play more and then you will improve over time. Might not be musically or theoretically "correct" but as long as you are motivated and enjoying it what the heck. To be clear I'm not encouraging people to take unnecessary shortcuts. People who can play at a high level should strive for that. Personally, that isn't in the cards for me so I just try to do what I can, not sound too bad, and most important have fun.

One other thing I have noticed by recording myself is time and feel is probably as important (or more?) than what actual notes you are playing. Simplifying changes could probably help that as well.

Twang

It’s interesting when you say “might not be musically or theoretically correct”. There is a lot of criticism from the gypsy jazz police for playing licks that are harmonically correct but seen to be thrown in without much thought to how they work in the solo. Or you are not adhering to perfect voice leading, no coherent thematic development etc etc.

If I had all this in my playing I could change my name to Django.

The thing is its a real achievement for me to recognise and remember to use the lick/idea and play it correctly as the chords whistle past without worrying about anything else.

There aren’t really any short cuts but it shouldn’t be “either play like the greats or don’t bother”

(i know this isn’t what you’re saying Bones, I’m just putting it out there).

dennis

I misread the original post, I thought you meant the first part of the song, I know see that it’s referring to the last bit. My answer is still largely the same. There are so many approaches to improvisation that I couldn’t tell anyone which one is the best one. The best one is the one that you like.

As a sidenote, Bireli and his sidemen play After you’ve gone like this Am E7 Am B7 Em B7 Em, etc... The Cm to G got replaced with B7 to Em... even if the rhythm player is playing the original chords that you wrote, he will still think that way unless you point out to him that the rhythm section is playing Cm to G because he is so used to his version of the song that he doesn’t pay attention to the rhythm player. B7 to Em over Cm to G is rather clever..

Anyway, like I said there are so many systems, it is often a blend of various systems and never one thing only. So it’s like a spectrum. I ‘ve been involved in the transcriptions or study of over 1000 jazz solos, and there’s just so much variety in personal styles that I simply cannot pinpoint one particular method that will work for everyone. I’ve even transcribed solos by legends where they don’t always accurately nail the chord changes (for whatever reason). Miles Davis is a perfect example of this. I can’t explain why he played some of the notes he played on certain solos, but I can definitely say he missed a lot of chords but he was still happy enough with his solo to release them on record!

The example I like to give the most is basically Django and Grappelli. Both know the chords to the song but have completely different approaches, Django is much more likely to focus on the harmony, and not only so but to apply more harmonic sophistication whereas Grappelli is far more like to focus on key centers. One way to focus on key centers (therefore not always accurately outlining changes) is the use of the blues. On Minor Swing , Grappelli will play Am pentatonic over E7 for instance. There’s at least one instance of this off the top of my head.

But like I said, it is very much a spectrum, and sometimes Django will err on Stephane’s side and vice versa. I’ve seen Grappelli do some clever harmonic things as well.

My best advice would still be to try to listen to what your favorite players are doing and copy the idea. If the idea isn’t clear yet, then maybe just copy a few phrases until your ears get used to the idea (which may take a long time).

No matter what , never lose track of where you are in the song, but otherwise do whatever works for you.

I just transcribed this solo by Barney Kessel which is an excellent study on soloing over key centers. I was compelled to transcribe this solo for this very fact.

https://www.soundslice.com/slices/JWmVc/

Twang

Denis wrote: “There are so many approaches to improvisation that I couldn’t tell anyone which one is the best one. The best one is the one that you like”.

This is extremely helpful! One of the biggest obstacles to my enjoyment of learning this style, I find, is the constant self doubt.

Am I going about this the right way? Is what I’m working on going to help me achieve my goals? Etc

I now have my answer

(it better work Denis or I’m gonna sue you! 😁)

Buco

There are so many approaches to improvisation that I couldn’t tell anyone which one is the best one. The best one is the one that you like.

I've yet to run into a high level player that was concerned and spent a lot of time deciding about the methodology and the best way to go about it or used such and such method book or had their practice sessions structured in a certain way. The answer always was along the lines "I just played a ton". Stephane Wrembel even went as far as to say method books aren't very helpful at all and that's why he was resisting for years to write one, that no book will replace the work you need to put in. They do say they transcribed and learned a lot of solos so I guess they learned straight from the source what we're learning from books.

I always thought soloing around the key center happens more than you'd think in jazz, at least that's what my ears would tell me. I've yet to record a solo take focusing on the key center, I tried a few times (I'll still see to it) but nothing that I wanted to keep. But certainly Barney Kessel is a better one to demonstrate that concept.