'Perception' vs 'reality' in improvising... what's the difference? Is there one?

Teddy Dupont

The quotes I am referring to are definitely Django’s response to listening to his own playing. They are nothing to do with the recording process. Both Rostaing and Leveque say essentially the same about Django’s response to listening to playbacks of himself when he was surprised, pleased and perhaps even amazed at something he had done. These two performed with him well after Django would have been impressed with the novelty of the recording process.

Alexis Korner says of the April 1937 recording sessions that Django was so pleased with some of his solos that he was clapping his hands and jumping all over the place. I cannot recall for certain where he got that information from but I think it was something Hughes Panassie had written. I’ll check if I can remember. Rostaing also talks about Django slapping his thighs when delighted with a chorus he had taken.

The impression one gets is that Django sometimes did not realise what he had spontaneously created until he heard the playback.

Sadly, in my case, when I used to hear playbacks of gigs I had performed at, my playing invariably sounded far worse than I thought I had been. 😪 However, very occasionally I would find I played something I did not realise I had played and had no idea how I had thought of it.

Lango-Django

Strangely enough, when the HCQF first toured the UK, guess which band member had the most British fans?

Louis Vola!

The Brits had never before seen a jazz bass player playing pizzicato!

They thought it was the greatest thing ever!

How pissed must Django have been?

****

And hey, as a former Herman’s Hermit fan, I’ll put in a word for them,..

... okay they weren’t the Beatles (who were?) but they had some nice harmonies and lead guitar work that made them a very supportive backup group which created a lot of atmosphere.

And their rhythm guitarist must have been pretty good, just to be able to play all the right chords under the bridge of “Mrs, Brown, You’ve Got A Lovely Daughter”...!

Buco

Regarding Django and his excitement on hearing himself (my recollection is that these anecdotes are mostly from the early days of HC), I think it makes a big difference to hear something like that in context with other musicians where other instruments really highlight the harmonic richness of his playing. Plus at that point it wasn't exactly an ancient history for him when he was laid in bed and everybody around him believed his music making days are over. Having that kind of injury and then miraculous recovery must've been super stressful for him, can't imagine it wasn't. Then you find yourself in the studio making music again, heck yeah you're gonna be excited about it. The Dregni book made it sound like in his early days it wasn't exactly that people jumped and flocked immediately to his playing. He pretty much had to go through a period of proving himself to the audience, he went through those same pains just like every one of us in some way. To me it also sounded like Delaunay should be credited more for Django's success than he is, for believing in Django and backing him in those early days when others weren't so sure.

Yes I do believe hearing your recorded playing is a little bit like hearing your speaking voice, usually it's just not what you thought it would sound like. Just a week ago I used that analogy with a guy I'm teaching when we were talking about the importance of recording yourself. It's a really good way to get honest with yourself.

When you say that other people hear things in your playing that you don't (hopefully good stuff) it reminds me a little bit with some famous songs or lyrics that get interpreted one way or another, then you hear composer or writer says "oh I didn't have that in mind at all when I wrote that".

Lango-Django

A philosophical question: When one listens to a Django recording, is one listening to the sound of the band as a holistic thing, or is one listening primarily to Django?

Two historical strains of jazz bands are well represented by Louis Armstrong (ie, virtuoso soloist in front of backup band) and Duke Ellington (ie, communal creation with multiple more or less “equal” featured soloists)

I would definitely put Django into the ‘Armstrong’ category...

Lango-Django

However, very occasionally I would find I played something I did not realise I had played and had no idea how I had thought of it.

...yeah, that’s the magic, isn’t it?

That’s the subconscious at work...

bbwood_98

Great topic!!!

Some comments on the 'rhythm' side: I am for sure my own worst critic - and dislike most of what comes out. However, I (as we all should IMHO!!) try to focus on making the band sound amazing rather then showing off. To my this includes various ways of interacting with soloists whenever possible (and hopefully I don't F%%k the beat up someway or another . . . ) and musical; trying to create a holistic and interactive space. Because it's jazz, and thats a part of it (again IMHO).

@Lango-Django - I am not so sure I agree about louis armstrong - early hot 5's and 7s to me seem more like 'traditional' New Orleans collective improvisation style things, later - for sure him in front of a band. There are unit's and moments that things are super collective even with the soloist function (Adrien Moignard, Sebastien G, et all jamming at samoreau 2005 - just super playing and super sympatico); so I'm always striving for this.

Finally, your last quote there (degas) is almost what all my teachers recommend about improvising. When practicing, you work to gain facility, language, understand tunes, create unique solo ideas, and so on. Then at the end of each session, and always at gigs - you just run the tap and see what comes out. Sometime's it's brown rusty water, sometimes it's perfect clear drinkable water . . . and at that point you're in it either way and leaning on the weight of the practice.

Finally, @adrian I'm not so sure - you are a pretty great listener as a soloist - and understand the sound as a whole pretty well (and have for a long time). Proving that your at least listening to the band while you play!

Cheers,

Djangheureux

wow, what a great discussion with a lot of very interesting answers, indeed philosophical!!!

for me there a different levels i can work on:

the Practice Level where i practice a special thing, say using the half diminished arpeggio on every chord for hours, sounding great at the end…

well, the audience is not that patient and to be honest i don’t want to sound noodeling like that in the end!

I like to break it up by just playing to a movie or something distracting, just unconsciously reacting, also not a real gig solution! Still helpful to be able to react spontaneously!

on the Demonstration Level i have a student that i know (in fact he/ she is my „Medium“ and even pays for it:)) very slowly for example a guideline very clearly and then take of…

at the end i always ask myself why i don’t play that way on a gig…

it takes some guts to play two choruses of blues wailing just on the root note à la Wes Montgomery plus your Rhythm Section has to trust you and leave a lot of space! I don't always have a masterplan either...

from time to time everything falls in the right place for different and sometimes complicated reasons…

this is great and i am very thankful for this even if the tape was't running and the moment is gone…

that's life, we’re here and someday we’re gone (hopefully not by c19)!

In these moments my brain and the criticism is turned of which is hard to achieve on purpose without drugs! & co.!

Since i think on all but the last Levels our uncontrollable EGO is involved, jumping between Fear and Hope all the time which isn’t helpful at all!

Of course our ego is a huge part of the motor driving Creativity, we’e humans anyway (not shure about my Ex Girl Friend:)!

Meditation works great for me! Criticism does not!

Finally i learned to accept that i can put one thing in and get another thing out of it, which may not work for everyone though!

I started to record a few arrangement studys during the first lockdown an friend ask me if i think they'e pretty…

i just don’t really care to much since i was sitting on the dock of the bay looking at the clouds and the big river taking whatever idea was coming to me, happy to be in good health!

Of course there is a difference, will always be!

I’m so f***ing happy to play Music!

Sven

Lango-Django

Meditation works great for me! Criticism does not!

Teddy Dupont

Harping back to Alexis Korner’s comment about Django finding his own playing a revelation, you have to remember that for many years Django was playing the guitar and creating music in a way that had never been done or heard before. He WAS a revelation so why would he not be surprised, like many others, to hear playing that he had not heard as a listener, rather than performer, before.

To us, his playing is something from the past that we have heard many, many times, together with countless “copiers”, and it is easy to forget just how unique he was at that time.

Lango-Django

Well, wasn’t Django was the first among a bunch of great guitarists who were in Paris at that time, like the Ferret brothers and Oscar Aleman...?