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In my original post I made the same point as Dr Feynman - that "why" is difficult. Which only proves that a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. A long scale of around 67cm, a top that is loaded/stressed in some fashion, a movable bridge and light strings will generally give the sound we're talking about here. Take away any one of these things and it'll start to go away. The original Saga Gitanes from the early 90s had a flat top and did not make the sound. A short scale D-hole has less of the sound. A Larsen guitar (which has a stressed top but a fixed bridge) doesn't exactly have it either. Strings that are too heavy seem to inhibit the top. Etc. I doubt if anyone can "prove" why this is so. As Russell said, a guitar is a complex assemblage of many parts, some of which have a pronounced impact on the sound and others have very little. Think of all the things that can be adjusted in construction - the amount of arching in either axis, type of spruce, brace size/shape/density, a lot of variables, and there isn't any way to quantify the impact of any of them. Builders just try to do what they know works best.
A good Martin style flat top is designed to play many styles of music, and has a pleasant and agreeable tone, and it's not especially hard to get. A modern Selmer style guitar, specifically designed and built for modern styles of gypsy jazz, does not even make the correct gypsy jazz tone unless you play it in a very specific way, and it isn't especially good for any other kind of music. Certainly not for Americana, or bluegrass or similar. Even an 80s Favino, a guitar designed for a professional guitarist who might need it for various styles, isn't 100% suitable for "folk" styles of American music. Bluegrass players don't necessarily dislike the guitars, they just don't work for what they do. I've always played in old-timey bands and contra dance bands and tried all my gypsy guitars with those groups and it doesn't work - or at least no one likes it. Or in the words of that great sage:
After I wrote that post I recalled that even the sides--the rims, as others call them--can affect the instrument's voice. A builder friend has started to use his own laminates (what he calls "double sides") for the rims of his Martin-influenced flat-tops because, he says, the increased stiffness changes the way the top and back couple to the sides, which in turn affects the flexibility of the top. He also fiddles with the composition of the laminates, based on his "completely unscientific theory is that sound waves may bounce off the inner sides differently and hopefully musically."
So everything between the neck and tail blocks matters. Along with the nut behind the wheel, as the old joke has it.
@Russell Letson thanks for that link, never seen that one. When Martin handed the guitar to his wife around 6:11 and the guitar went off the screen and immediately I heard a loud thump, my heart skipped, like no kidding.
They both seemed to genuinely admire and love them.
Here's a video with luthier, Cranmer Guitars, trying to make the same guitar as much as possible, with bracing being the only difference
@scot your posts are as close as we'll get answering this.
Yes you are right Brett, that was the late Jon Delaney. Good player and a good guy too. He's not narrow-minded at all, the Maton guitar factory comment was just a joke obviously.
Though it is kinda true that if you've got a hard-hitting GJ technique and you try to play like that on any kind of flat top style guitar, it doesn't work too well. When you're used to the way a GJ guitar responds, something like a dreadnought doesn't respond like that and just seems kind of dead. They want to be played differently.
Thanks Wimm- to their credit Maton have come along way in the last 10 years. Prior to that most of their guitars just sounded over built. A good Maton now is a great flat top. I think a lot of it is on the back of Tommy E's input.
but I digress again....
I'm gonna stick with my hypothesis about competing plates a bit longer.
To help me gather evidence, I have a request for everyone out there who owns or plays a tricone guitar....
...here we have a perfect real life example of an instrument with three separate plates in vibration...
...so, please, chime in...
...in what ways is your tricone similar or dissimilar to your gypsy guitar?
Thanks for answering!
Will
(Who has never played a tricone...)
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
I've had a National M-1 (wood-body tricone) for several years now, and it's voice is not like any of my other guitars, of which there are more than a few and of widely varying design formulas. The only sonic overlap might be in what I hear as a nasal honk that shows up in my Dunn Daphne when it's pushed hard--it reminds me of the nasality of other resphonics and some archtops (of the Gibson variety). But the M-1 is definitely on the sweet end of the resophonic spectrum, which is why I got it. Like the Dunn, it can produce an uncharacteristic range of sounds.
Mike Dowling has a revealing video comparison of the M-1 and the El Trovador he favors. Interestingly, I've had week-long workshops with Mike where the only guitar he uses is his El Trovador--for swing or blues. I've made similar use of my Dunn--it could be the only guitar I'd take to duo/trio gigs where we played everything from country to swing to fingerpicking. Now the M-1 is the guitar I take to jams--partly to be heard over the din, and partly because it works for almost any style.
Thanks, Russell. As the fellow owner of a Dunn guitar, I very much agree with your thoughts! They are capable of a lot of different sounds!
Now, I am assuming from watching the Mike Dowling video that your instrument's three six inch cones are basically identical?
Here's a thought question: what if your tricone had three different sized cones?
Or even, cones made out of three different metals?
How might that change the sound?
Thanks!
Will
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
And one further request... If anybody would be willing to help by temporarily altering your cones ...
... perhaps by using different combinations of painter's tape and paper clips or cardboard... to make all three cones have slightly different tones...
...how does that change the overall sound of the instrument?
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
I just noticed that replacement cost of my M-1 is $4K, so I ain't messing with anything more dangerous than changing the strings. I'll leave experimentation to the specialist builders who spin their own cones and use old hubcaps as decorations.